The Final word on TEAM USA comparisons
Vincent Thomas sorts through the madness
By Vincent Thomas
For the past couple days, ESPN has had a picture of the MJ-Barkley-Magic trio superimposed with the Bron-Kobe-Melo trio, asking just how closely this 2007 incarnation of Team USA compares to the original Dream Team….
Don’t get me wrong, I dug the way this squad Deebo’d the comp, but to even begin comparing them to the Dream Team is ridiculous for so many reasons that it’s really not worth debating. Would Michael Redd, Chauncey Billups, Mike Miller or even Amare Stoudemire and Dwight Howard get consideration on that ’92 squad? Of course not. Forgetting Christian Laettner for a moment, what Dream Teamer wasn’t supremely ill with the rock? Don’t sleep on Chris Mullin. Mulls was a ball-playin’ fool from Queens. He knew basketball, knew angles, knew movement, had witty court vision and – most importantly – used to flick that nasty lefty from 25-feet whenever on a whim. And you aren’t snoozin’ on Clyde the Glyde, too, right? Or are you? The season leading into the ’92 Olympics – the one where Clyde led Portland to the Finals – dude averaged 25, 7, 7 and 3. Put it like this: I’d take Clyde over every perimeter player from ’07 save Kobe and POSSIBLY LeBron. Yeah, I said it.
And we know the rest of the squad: MJ, Scottie, Malone, Barkley, Ewing and Robinson in their primes. Yeah, Magic was coming out of retirement, but just a year after he won MVP and months after he won the All-Star MVP. Seriously, this shouldn’t be a discussion.
But to be perfectly clear, ’07 actually comes in a rather distant third in the Team USA hierarchy. Go study. After you do the knowledge, I’m almost positive that you’ll conclude that the ’96 Olympic squad is discernibly better – so much better, in fact, that this also should not be a discussion. If you break these squads down by position and skill-set, it’s seriously not even close.
Peep it…
POINT GUARDS: This ’07 squad is not lacking. Kidd and Billups are vets and highly skilled, even if both wouldn’t be considered at the peak of their prowess. But the ’96 point guards were John Stockton and Gary Payton. ’96 Stockton was in a stage of his career almost identical to ’07 Kidd, except Stockton had yet to be injured (he had one more season of 82 games before his first injury-plagued season); still doing 15, 11 and 2. Where ’96 obliterates ’07 is when you factor in GP – a young (27), spry, nasty, ornery GP, fresh off the Finals surprise of taking the 72-win Bulls to 6. This was the second year of a five or six-season string of some of the best GUARD play (not just point guard) in the game’s history. At his peak (and GP had arrived at his peak here), Payton was the best perimeter defender in the league – save maybe Pippen (MJ was slowing down defensively, a bit, at this point), could play an entire game with his off-hand, had the post-game of a skilled power forward and could knock down an international trey regularly.
The Real: As brilliant as Kidd was during this tournament, he and Chauncey are not seeing a Stockton-Payton tandem on any day. And that’s even with the chore of avoiding the sight of Stockton and his camel-toe in boy-shorts.
SHOOTERS: Redd is good, sometimes outstanding. Mike Miller is a marginal player that has his moments. ’96 trotted out Reggie Miller – a gun-slinging Reggie Miller, who, like Mullin, shot international treys like Tiger putts chip shots. He may be the greatest shooter ever. And you’re not sleepin’ on Mitch Richmond are you? By this time, Mitch was pretty much universally accepted as the league’s second best two-guard. He averaged big points, and these were big points in an NBA still dominated by big men, an NBA where perimeter defenders used to literally wrestle with kats playing that 90s, physical, hand-checking, Knicks/Pistons-influenced defense. But besides the fact that he was built like a smaller version of Karl Malone, dude was straight wet from long-range. He shot about 44% from long distance in the 95-96 season, 43% in 96-97. Forget for a moment that Regg and Mitch were ridiculously more skilled players – two of the best of their generation – and that Redd and Mike Miller aren’t and shouldn’t be mentioned among today’s elite (I’m not a Redd fan like that); Regg and Mitch, in terms of the specialty they brought to their Olympic squad, were simply better, more consistent shooters. Redd and Miller took turns struggling from long-range half the time.
The Real: Come on, this shouldn’t be debated. Forget Mike Miller, there were times when Redd would go cold and I would think I was looking at Kenny Anderson, since they’re both left-handed and both have waterheads shaped like the alien on Indepence Day.
THE THREE PERIMETER STARS: This is where people might actually be slightly surprised. Not only were Bron and Melo forced to play out of position on this squad, but went compared straight-up, strictly on talent and production and skill, there is a STRONG argument to be made that the Penny-Grant Hill-Pippen trio of ’96 is over the Kobe-Bron-Melo threesome. Maybe his 5-year stint in Orlando has caused you to forget, but Hill kinda went bizerk during his first five years in the league with the Pistons. For the immediate seasons before and after the ’96 Games, Hill averaged about 21 points, 9.5 boards and 7 assists. That line is utterly ridiculous. Penny was and still is the closest thing we’ve seen to Magic, specifically since Cleveland has almost totally rewired any point guard tendencies LeBron brought with him from high school. Pippen was Pippen. All three of these dudes could score (excessively) when called upon, were top-flight defenders and maybe the most versatile players of the last 25 years, other than Magic and (MAYBE LeBron). These three dudes could all play point, two-guard and small-forward with equal aplomb and lock down each of those positions on defense, as well. And each of them were incredibly smart players, something that Bron and Melo, as youngsters, can struggle with.
The Real: They aren’t definitely the scorers that Bron-Melo-Kobe are and none of them are the singular talent of Bron, let alone Kobe…but if I was Colangelo and I had the choice of bringing a ’96 Hill-Hardaway-Pippen trio to Beijing or an ’07 Kobe-Bron-Melo; I’m actually gonna take Hill-Hardaway-Pippen and not spend much time questioning that decision.
CENTERS: This is where it gets laughable. Hakeem and Robinson are two of the 10 greatest centers of all-time. It’s quite possible that you’d put Hakeem in your Top 15 Players of All-Time. The hallmark of international big men is their mobility and comfort playing on the perimeter. Dream and Robinson may be the two most mobile, agile and graceful big men ever – they moved like small forwards. You’d have to field an ’04 Duncan-Garnett duo to match them. But Amare-Howard??? Don’t get it twisted, I dig both of those young dudes, but this shouldn’t be a discussion either. In fact, one could argue that, on a very fundamental level, Amare, but especially Howard, aren’t necessarily very good basketball players. Talented? Very. Athletic? Supremely. But no one is gonna pop in tapes of Dwight Howard and Amare Stoudemire to teach a young kid the subtle nuances of the game of basketball. Here’s a prediction: in Beijing, Howard and Amare are going to take turns staying in foul trouble, have difficulty getting off shots in half court sets and probably get beat for boards they should grab with ease (even though I must admit that Howard is a great rebounder).
The Real: This part of the squad would be the greatest disparity of talent and acumen if it weren’t for…
THE THREE LEFTOVERS: With the two point guards, two shooters, three perimeter stars and two centers out of the way, you’re left with three roster spots. ’07 fielded Deron Williams, Tayshaun Prince and Tyson Chandler in these spots. And that’s cool. ’96, however, suited up Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and a young, Marvel-comic Shaq. This comparison is downright hilarious.
The Real: I won’t even answer this. But, just for discussion sakes, since the 12th man is usually a low-minutes player, can’t we just go get Mateen Cleeves from whatever overseas league he’s playing in (Haiti, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, wherever)? Just think of how many times we’d see him tap dance in celebration after a dunk.
DEFENSE: Just to seal this issue and drive home how the chasm between these two squads is quite wide, the ’96 squad featured a team full of skilled and tenacious defenders – Payton, Pippen, Dream, Robinson being four of the best defenders to ever play. Even Reggie was sneaky and wily and full of guile. Only Barkley and Shaq slummed it. ’07 features folks like Melo and Amare, who don’t know how to play defense; Miller, who can’t play defense; and Kidd and Billups that can struggle locking down quick points.
The Real: Same ol’ thing. I mean, even Mike Krzyzewski’s nose is considerably worse than Lenny Wilkens’ good-hair. The squads don’t compare.
’07 was ill and, barring injury, ’08 – with the additions of Wade and Bosh – will definitely be a historic team. But it has no chance of seeing the ’92 and ’96 Olympic squads.
Let’s not bring this up again.
78 Responses to “The Final word on TEAM USA comparisons”
Sep.6 at 9:56 am
Ryan Jones says:
Comments are disabled for this post. Or they should be. Well done, VT.
Sep.6 at 9:56 am
Ryan Jones says:
Except, well, you really should delete “original” from the opening paragraph. It’s redundant.
Sep.6 at 9:57 am
Sam Rubenstein says:
are they? Testing testing. Excellent work VInce if you can read this
Sep.6 at 10:05 am
maio says:
Indeed.
Sep.6 at 10:09 am
white hot eboy says:
Vincent, you’re intelligent. And kind of funny. Although, the way you put the 96 team out there, they seem unbeatable, too. Most teams in today’s game don’t put the effort in to play rough-neck defense, so that’s why the 07 or the 08 team will ever match the Dream Team or the 96 teams place in beat-down history. Those guys dominated, humiliated and intimidated. All great quality’s for a juggernaut. It’s cool this showed up after the debate we had 2 days ago. Nice.
Sep.6 at 10:17 am
Tombomb says:
A little tough on some of the kids, don’t forget you are looking back at great players, by the end of their careers you might say that this team is a real class act. And don’t be doggin J Kidd he is a hall of famer for sure!!! But havin Sir Charles as an extra is crazy this team does not have that kind of depth.
Sep.6 at 10:26 am
Gee says:
I was thinking the same thing when the commentators kept saying that this was the best team since 92. That 96 team is full of players who are or will be in the Hall, this team has 4 players who will be(Kidd, Kobe, Lebron, maybe Melo if he gets his game together)
Sep.6 at 10:32 am
ken says:
I thoroughly enjoyed this post. Very well written and thought out. For us people old enough to remember Penny and Grant Hill before the injuries, it felt like vindication to hear somebody else point out that they were better than Bron-Melo are today. Good stuff.
Sep.6 at 10:51 am
Hans says:
Who was arguing in the first place? This thing never even went to trial! PS: Penny 2K7 - I am in your corner! PPS: Bring Lill’ Penny back!
Sep.6 at 12:23 pm
Khalid Salaam says:
Vincent, i coudn’t have said it better myself. I keep telling the youngun’s that Penny was that dude. But all they remember are his sneakers.
Sep.6 at 12:30 pm
Drew says:
A good, well thought-out post. But great players look better in retrospect than they do while they are playing. If Amare and Howard continue to develop, we might be looking back in 10 years saying, wow: LeBron, Kobe, Melo, DWade, Bosh, Amare and Howard, with Kidd and Billips, you can’t get better than that. Great players become legends, and it is hard later to compare current players with them. For example, when you say “Pippen was Pippen,” at the time, that wasn’t seen as a great compliment. He had just proven that he could not lead a team to the championship without MJ.
And the competition they faced was not the same. There was no Ginobili, no Dirk, no Nash for them to face. Toni Kukoc was the big foreign name. Even Hakeem played for the USA rather than his native Nigeria. That wouldn’t happen now.
So yes, the ‘96 team was great, but the ‘08 team still might be as good.
Sep.6 at 12:57 pm
jk says:
u had me till the grnat hill penny and pipen to melo lebron kobe
Sep.6 at 1:03 pm
b4hoops.blogspot.com says:
Great post! Although, I’ve got a fundamental problem in comparing this US Team with either the 92 or 96 teams. For whatever reason, soon after the 96 team went to town on the internationals, NBA superstars decided they had better things to do with their summers than represent their country. So if ya’ll remember, in the 2000 Olympics, 2002 World Championships and 2004 Olympics we were represented by much less than the best of the NBA. This 2007 team, although a better mix, is still the same deal. We don’t have Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dwayne Wade, Elton Brand, etc. on this team either. If they put together a real “Dream Team” from today’s best players, to go up against the 96 or 92 teams, today’s team might have a better showing. Since all we’re doing is really comparing names and credentials, I would think a team with Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, Carmelo, Brand, Shaq, Iverson, Wade, Garnett, T-Mac, Amare and Billups would be a better comparison. Of course in practice, all of these current superstars would need to accept their roles and play as a team, just like the 92 and 96 teams did.
Sep.6 at 1:12 pm
Ill Will says:
I agree with Drew. And I’m saying this after just watching a bunch of 96′ team games which was like my favorite team ever. I agree that the 96 team was better, and the breakdown is prety dead-on here. But I have to disagree with saying that Hill-Penny-Pippen was better than Bron-Melo-Kobe without much thought. It’s very, very close. And Lebron was kind of discounted on his abilities for some reason. I’d give Kobe the nod over Pippen, Lebron barely over Penny (and I wa a HUGE Penny fan), and Hill over Melo. But if you recall, when they made this team, they didnt want a roster full of stars, thats why there is no Iverson or Arenas. That said, It’s hard to know how a team of individual starts like the one in 96 would have fared against the international competition in 07. But still, 96 was better than than 07’s collection so I don’t know what my purpose was here. I just had a Chauncey Billups moment.
Sep.6 at 1:51 pm
jbn74sb says:
Creative spelling work on “bizerk”. And I’ll take Melo-Kobe-LeBron over Penny-Grant- Pippen any day of the week.
Sep.6 at 2:04 pm
KD says:
I just don’t know if you can do player-by-player comparisons because the game has changed so much. The two teams were trying to win in entirely different games. Player-by-Player comparisons are good for a newspaper before the Finals; but I can’t imagine them in this instance. It’s like doing a player-by-player comp between the 60s Celtics and the 80s Celtics.
Sep.6 at 2:19 pm
white hot eboy says:
KD, the difference between the players and the game of the 60’s and the 80’s were quantam leaps apart. Today’s game isn’t so different from the 90’s. The athletes are a little better overall, and there was more of a onus on defense in the 90’s than today, but the wing players are extremly similar and with the exception of the big man that shoot threes on the regular, player models are very similar.
Sep.6 at 2:30 pm
Nick Graber says:
I would have 2 honestly agree with all of that, Lebron, Melo, and Kobe are overrated but are in the top 10 in the league right now. And yeah i would most definetly say that the 92′ trio of Magic, Barkely, and MJ are better then Bron, Kobe, and Melo. Just give em a few years, and Hakeem and Robinson are better then Dwight and KG. But KG and Dwight are two of my favs, but im more in 2 the old school play, and players. If Dwade would of been in this years squad it would of made alot of thangs better. But this years guys, cant mess wit the 92′ squad plain and simple.
Sep.6 at 2:55 pm
Jordi Scrubbings says:
I remember SI doing an old piece on the 92 team vs the 96 team. Or maybe it was the 94 team. But they broke it down in a real good fictional game. And I think of course the one and only Dream Team from 92 won by like 3. Although I think Bron is better than Hill ever was, I agree that the Penny-Hill-Pippen tandem is much more versatile and gives you more as a coach than Melo-Kobe-Bron.
Sep.6 at 4:26 pm
jdubbs says:
Kobe is one of the greatest players of this generation and is better than Penny, Hill, and Pippen. Melo has turned into a beast on the international scene and I’d take him over Penny, Hill and Pippen in his prime. And Lebron has the passing and scoring and sheer domination skills to be one of the best ever. So those 3 are way, way better, it’s not even a comparison. I can live with the rest, though.
Sep.6 at 4:33 pm
Mavs-Cavs Fan says:
u suck! y r u even comparing them then sayign dont compare them. u dont kno anything
Sep.6 at 4:43 pm
Ben Osborne says:
Vince, I don’t agree with every argument you make (like Bodie, I’d go with Melo/Bron/Kobe), nor calling Mully “from Queens” (he may have been born there, but he repped BK all day), but the research was THOROUGH and the writing was live. It was an extra bonus for me since you’ve been MIA for a minute. Nice to have you back.
Sep.6 at 4:46 pm
Tarzan Cooper says:
and that, bodie, is why you are a tard. nbatv was showing a lot of 96 olympic games while the americas were going on and i couldnt help but wonder, why the f$ck was reggie wearing stunna shades? just to show that he can still wet 3s in a yellow tint?
Sep.6 at 5:08 pm
Jake Appleman says:
The SI piece was 92 vs 94 and it painted the 94 team as arrogant if the 11 year old in remembers correctly, and i do vividly remember sitting in the library reading it. good stuff, Vincent.
Sep.6 at 5:30 pm
Reggie Evans says:
I trust Jose “Piculin” Ortiz.
Sep.6 at 5:36 pm
Tim says:
I just want to know what basketball people have watched if the honestly think lebron melo are better than pippen hill or penny in their primes, kobe is the only one that is close and he is still iffy.
Sep.6 at 8:06 pm
Tuomas says:
I wouldn’t go comparing this team to the original DT because it’s a whole different game now. But if I have to, I’d still take the original, mainly because of the points provided by Vincent. Sure, the competition is way tougher now and the 2007 version has been practising together for a longer period. But, most of the original Dream Teamers were in their prime and the team had so much much (MUCH!) more poise and experience overall. Give DT1 the same type of preparation time (in a fantasy setting, we might as well do that) and it really shouldn’t be close, at least in a series of games. A better comparison might be pitting the 2007 version against DT2 - and even that is a stretch. They were younger than the original DT (remember, players from the ‘92 team were excluded from the roster), but still had more veteran poise than this year’s team. They didn’t have clear-cut leaders like Kobe, Lebron etc., but like DT1, they were waaaay better inside. Shaq, Zo, Coleman in his prime (if you remember, he actually used to be very good and skilled before his head REALLY got stuck in his ass), Larry Johnson and Kemp who simply killed opponents with his athleticism, hops, quickness and ballhandling. To fully grasp the absurdity of comparing Howard and Amare or even Chandler to those guys, consider this: Shaq and Zo both came off the bench (!) in a world championship final game. DT2 also had a bunch of the best three point bombers ever: Majerle, Price, Miller. Throw in Dumars and Smith for good measure, they too hit the international three like it was a layup. Shaq and Kemp were probably the only players on the roster who didn’t hit a three in the ‘94 tournament. In the final, DT2 went the first 8 1/2 minutes without missing a single shot - something I had never seen before and have never seen since. ‘Nique was already past his prime, but added to the veteran leadership. Kevin Johnson wasn’t exactly a chump either, to use the mother of all understatements. They had their ups and downs, but always played with a mean streak: they smirked and intimidated the opposition so much it probably even cost some of them (see: Kemp, Shawn) a roster spot in DT3. In the final game everything clicked and they beat Russia by 46 despite getting sloppy in the second half and toying with the opponent - ever seen Shaq attempt four or five threes in a game? I would’ve loved to watch a game between them and the original Dream Team, in part because the players were all different. And although I think DT2 would’ve lost especially in a seven game series, this year’s team would still be behind them. And no, that comparison shouldn’t be brought up again either.
Sep.6 at 8:11 pm
Tuomas says:
Whoa, that’s a big f”#¤ing rant. Sorry everyone, but those were good times.
Sep.6 at 8:46 pm
Vince says:
Ben: Didn’t Mullin go to Christ AND St. John’s? And I’ll see in you in a few. For those going hard at my Pipp-Penny-Hill argument, I feel you. I’m not saying that’s a slamdunk. But Pippen-Hill-Penny are all extremely versatile, malleable, explosive, defensive-minded and SMART. Those 3 in 96 are over Kobe-Melo-Bron in 07. Maybe if we’re to look to the future and talk maybe 2010 WC Games is this current trio really reaching their potential. Melo coulnt average 21-9.5-7 or defend 3 positions EVER. these are facts. Melo is the weak link.
Sep.6 at 9:19 pm
Devontae Palmer in dis hoe, watch me crank and watch me roll.SUPERMAN!!!!! UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!! says:
You know, that is a big step. I really never dug deep into the original dream teams but I was understood that they were hot as fish griese. You make very good points Vincent, and I don’t know why people are comparing this team to ‘92. We just need to leave the past alone and stay with the present. This ‘08 team is going to be crucial, but I just want to see how next summer goes. play wit it.
Sep.6 at 11:19 pm
Jukai says:
Stop with the “ARE YOU SLEEPIN ON MAH BOY …” It’s annoying. Those players you had to say that about were subpar players. Mullin is honestly on the same level as Redd in my opinion. Miller is underrated. And I really think you are underestimating players from this year’s team. For one thing, this isn’t the olympic team; hopefully Bosh’ll replace Chandler (who I thought just wasn’t used) and Wade’ll replace Williams (no need for three point guards) and THEN compare the teams… with Wade/Bosh/Amare/Howard/Lebron all a year older. I agree with you, the 96 team on paper sounds a lot better. But Hill and Penny at their primes are NOT as good as Lebron or Melo. And Pippen is the best role player to ever play the game. The most versitile too, he’s like Marion on steroids. But c’mon… A LEGENDARY player? Ask yourself this… Can Hill or Penny or Pippen top anyone’s top 25 list? Maybe one or two. But I bet Kobe’s in most people’s ten, and Lebron’s inching up to the late teens. It’s just not a good arguement. 96 is SLIGHTLY better, and unless Lebron/Wade/Howard/Amare/Bosh/whoever improve DRASTICALLY next year, 96 will still be better. But compare Olympic teams to Olympic teams. This was not our olympic team.
Sep.6 at 11:23 pm
Jukai says:
I also understand this is just a way of sticking it to the media who are saying “OMG THIS TEAM IS JUST LIKE JORDAN BIRD MAGIC ETC.” and I’ll give you it’s incredibly well written and convincing, but a lot of it is overblown.
Sep.6 at 11:25 pm
Jukai says:
I mean, c’mon… Mitch Richmond was a great three point shooter, 40% is insane. But Steve Kerr shot that too. You think Richmond is a more versitile player than Redd? Egh…
Sep.7 at 1:20 am
Young Chris #3 says:
I’m not trying to start a 300 post follow-up, but Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway in their primes, in the 2000-era NBA, MIGHT be the scorers Kobe and Lebron are (ok, maybe not Kobe. Happy?).
Sep.7 at 3:50 am
dj says:
@Vince: maybe in the NBA game you’d take Hill-Pip-Penny over Melo-bron-kobe at this point, but considering the international game, I’d have to at least call you out for saying Melo is the weak link.
No way.
Melo is what would happen if you crosses the scoring skill set of a Euro forward (someone like Dirk) with the athletic frame of an american 3. Haven’t you realized Melo is a BETTER player in FIBA than in the NBA, crazy as it may sounds? If Coach K played melo 35 minutes a game he would be average 35+, easily. He’s far too quick and explosive for FIBA 4s to handle, esp on the offensive boards (he’s been playing volleyball to himself there) and yet FIBA 3s are too small and weak to handle him too. There are no Ron Artests, Bruce Bowens or KGs playing for any FIBA teams. To make a long point short, Melo is ideally suited for the international game, more than any american player on the 07 team, and i’d give him the FIBA nod over ‘96 Grant Hill (which, sadly, pains me - i still remember the SI for Kids cover with Hill his rookie year. good times. and the FILA shoes.)
Sep.7 at 6:11 am
H-Llamas says:
This post is indeed thorough. I don’t remember Penny being able to lock up a lot of point guards, but besides that it’s all good
Sep.7 at 6:13 am
David says:
GP in his prime was pretty amazing. I remember reading some kind of article about the ‘96 team in practice and there was a bit about GP completely shutting down Stockton. The author made it sound like it was impossible to dribble down court. Maybe it was a slam-worthy exaggeration to make a point, but it’s built up the legend of GP in my mind.
Sep.7 at 7:09 am
Ben Osborne says:
Vince, Mullin went to Xaverian in Bay Ridge Brooklyn. You’re still the man.
Sep.7 at 7:40 am
Chris says:
Ok I can get with the Hill over Melo but Penny-Pippen over Kobe-Lebron? That is simply laughable. Now I know Pippen is a 50 greatest with offensive versatility and lock down Defense but he is no way shape or form on par with Kobe Bryant. Just think of it this way, if you put Kobe on the 90’s Bulls, Pippen is still the sidekick. He might have athleticism and be a defensive monster, but Kobe is all those things x10 with offensive game on par with (arguably even better than) MJ. I know they play different positions but I compared them anyway because I know for damn sure you weren’t comparing Kobe to Penny LOL!!. Lebron James vs. Penny Hardaway? I am a huge Penny fan he was my third favorite player in the 90’s (behind John Starks and Reggie Miller). But he has absolutely nothing on Lebron. If you put Penny on the 06-07 Cavaliers they don’t even get a whiff of the playoffs in the weak East, let alone the finals…Come the hell on…
Sep.7 at 7:47 am
Chris says:
In Conclusion Kobe is the best player in the world right now and at no point in his career was Pippen ever considered that. Kobe is constantly seriously being compared to or outright being called the best of the best. Penny never had the ability to take over an NBA game like Lebron displayed he could against a favored Detroit team known specifically for their smart play and defense. 25 straight points in the East Finals? Could Penny ever dream of putting up the number Lebron does? Never. LeBron is a once in a generation phenomenon. Penny is a great gaurd who had success during his time in the NBA. But he is not and never will be on anybody’s best (not most succesful, but best)of all time list.
Sep.7 at 8:05 am
Chris says:
Oh another point, this years team is made up of the best TEAM that the U.S. could offer. If we took the top 2 or three from each position the NBA has to offer now based on individual talent, the team comparisons that you write up would look much different. Throw in people like with the fundamental skill of Tim Dumcan or KG. The fire, quickness and determination of Iverson (that boy will play on a broken leg if he thought he could help his team win). People like DWade, and Chris Bosh, Ray Allen, they could contribute more than Mike Miller and Mike Redd and Tayshaun Prince. Also factor in that The NBA is made up differently than it was back then. Nowadays the best point guard and arguably the best forward in the league are playing for the opposition in Nash and Nowitzki. In ‘92 at that point in history, international game was nil. There were no Dirk’s, Nash’s, or anyone else Taking their crowns as some of the best in their positions and going overseas to play against us. It’s just completely different.
Sep.7 at 12:32 pm
Allenp says:
Jukai spoke blasphemy about Scottie Pippen. He said Pip is not legendary. No offense, but the first year Jordan set out Pip and the Dream were battling for the title of best in the association with Penny not far behind. Pip is top 50 of all time for a reason, I can only think of maybe one or two small forwards who are better. Bird and, eff that, just Bird.
Sep.7 at 12:34 pm
Allenp says:
Chris has a faulty memory too. Cause when Jordan left the first time, Pippen was considered by many to the be the best in the world. And Kobe is not at Pippen’s level when it comes to defense, and he never has been.
Sep.7 at 12:37 pm
Allenp says:
And anybody who has actually watched Mitch Richmond and Michael Redd play, can tell Richmond was the more complete player. Redd is nice, but he doesn’t have anywhere near the all around game Richmond had.
Sep.7 at 12:56 pm
white hot eboy says:
Allen, the argument can go on forever. The young cats that worship Kobe and Lebron will die fighting for their place in the game and history. The problem is, their history isn’t complete yet, so you can’t place either of them in the Legends category that so many of the other named players are. Not yet at least. Once their done and gone, then you can get an accurate assessment of their place in line.
Sep.7 at 12:56 pm
Fred says:
Melo-Lebron-Kobe are way better than Penny-Pippen-Hill, there no comparaison man, they will kill them at they prime.
Another thing, Penny and Grant Hill never be able to come up strong after injury,and I’m sure that if Melo, Lebron, Kobe have the same type of injury, they will be able to come up stronger than Penny and Hill. Man I thing if Kobe was hit be a train, he will be able to score 30+
Sep.7 at 1:02 pm
white hot eboy says:
See what I mean Allen?
Sep.7 at 1:12 pm
Lew B. Money says:
it sounds like Ron Burgundy back wit ESPN,
but it dont matter cause Mr. Thomas just went nuber two on them.
Sep.7 at 2:27 pm
H says:
great article! definitily right! i’m more impressed with argentina: they managed to get to the championship game without any of their best players (ginobili,…)
Sep.7 at 2:41 pm
Jukai says:
Maybe these ‘young cats’ (under 30?) have to make these arguements cause these old cats refuse to believe any player that came out past the Jordan era is any good.
Sep.7 at 2:44 pm
Jukai says:
And the NBA at 50 has its own problems. I mean, Jerry Lucas is on there but David Thompson isn’t? What?
Sep.7 at 2:58 pm
white hot eboy says:
Jukai, I think of myself more like an “old” lion, but whatever it’s your comment. The idea is not that the young guys suck or don’t deserve accolades, but let’s say, God forbid (seriously)Lebron had a career ending injury this season. How could he ever be compared to a 15 year veteran with gigantic stats and championship rings. It would be an unfinished book. If Lebron (I’ll stay with him, because other current players get way too much shine here)goes his entire career and wins less than 3 titles, does he automically fall short of Larry, Magic, Michael, Kareem, Russell, Shaq & Duncan. Same with 24 (dammit). If he doesn’t win another ring, is he still below those guys for ring purposes or do stats and perceived greatness make his case as a top 5 all-time great? It’s not hate. It’s just a view into winning as the ultimate goal and using that as a standard instead of stats as the end all be all. Or a combination of the two with the names I listed, at least.
Sep.7 at 3:20 pm
Jukai says:
But that’s a little odd WHE… because Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill’s careers WERE horribly destroyed by injuries. That’s what my focus is on right now. I mean, I agree, if Lebron, tomorrow, trips on a rock and gets hit by a bus, I’m not sure how I’ll remember his career and if I’d believe he’d be better than Penny Hardaway (who I thought was flippin’ incredible) or Grant Hill (who I never thought was that great). But Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill never really got to get to their prime. They were incomplete pictures, and at that, incomplete players. And no hate for Scottie Pippen, but LEGENDARY, in my opinion is top 15 to top 20. Pippen doesn’t fall into that catagory for me. Kobe does. Lebron (god forbid) probably will.
Sep.7 at 3:21 pm
Jukai says:
Also, props on the old lion comment
Sep.7 at 3:29 pm
white hot eboy says:
Jukai, I think the difference is that Grant and Penny never had Legend written on them (well maybe Grant since he WAS annoited a “next Jordan” buy this lovely magazine) and neither one of them sniffed a title. While they both had really good careers until the injury bug(s) came through, neither one was the clear cut “game’s greatest” at their height. Very good, but not THE greatest. And as far as Scottie is concerned, he is a top 50 player, was an incredible defender and played an unparrelled floor game. But I would take 24 over him, and Lebron is close but not quite on the “overtake PIP” list yet.
Sep.7 at 3:35 pm
Jukai says:
Er, from your last post, I’m not sure we’re really in any disagreement WHE.
Sep.7 at 3:37 pm
white hot eboy says:
Senility. That’s part of being old.
Sep.7 at 3:39 pm
Jukai says:
The whole “NBA championship” thing really hurts my head when deciding who are the greatest NBA players ever. Some players never won anything, like Elgin Baylor and Pete Maravich, but everyone refers to them as like the best thing ever. Yet other players, like David Thompson and Dominique Wilkins, sorta fall through the cracks. Would Bill Walton be remembered over Grant Hill if he never won an NBA championship? And yet, why do people not think Kobe is the greatest player EVER even though he has three? It’s hurtful, I tell ya.
Sep.7 at 5:35 pm
Tarzan Cooper says:
well jukai, see there was this guy named shaq who had a lil something to do with those titles. grant hill had everything, he was jordan and magic combind. was it 05-06 when he averaged 20-5-5? after all those surgeries, putting up those numbers is outstanding
Sep.7 at 6:42 pm
Allenp says:
Jukai, you made some good follow up arguments. I would argue that people are really forgetting just how dominant older players were in or before their prime. Penny may have never had an extended prime, but with Shaq and without him he was putting up bananas numbers. Grant Hill carried a Pistons team with no one for years until the ankle injury. At this point, Lebron and Melo do not have the career heft to beat out Penny and Grant in my opinion. Even with the inujuries, Penny and Grant had more success four years into their careers. Pippen and Kobe are close, but when Kobe takes the Lakers out of the first round solo while being the best offensive and defensive player, then I’ll put him on Pip’s level. Cause Pip did it, people seem to forget that. He didn’t score like Kobe, but he was always a better all around player, better teammate and better defender.
Sep.7 at 8:35 pm
Rubens says:
great work vincent. and if anyone sleeps on mitch they’re crazy
Sep.7 at 8:58 pm
Dark says:
Thank you Vincent - all you need to compare is the Bigs, people! Then you’ll see the light.
Sep.8 at 3:02 pm
Jukai says:
Allenp, the only thing I’ll say is that when Pippen carried his team out of the first round, it was in a far weaker division with a FAR better team. The rest of the stuff isn’t really arguable, it’s just how people look at it. Also, Cooper, Lebron James averaged 30-6.5-6.5. At an earlier age. That means he pretty much obliterated Grant Hill.
Sep.8 at 3:03 pm
Jukai says:
I’m sorta sad I said Pippen wasn’t legendary. He’s on my top 50 easily, I’d go as far to say top 30 players of all time. But I consider legendary to be top 15, really. Pippen was deffinitely one of the best.
Sep.8 at 3:03 pm
Jukai says:
Then again, what do I know. I’m a Rick Barry fan.
Sep.8 at 10:36 pm
Aaron says:
well no this team can’t be compared to teh first two teams…now. let’s lok at it when the youngsters have experience that equals guys from the first two teams. i know thats a whole diff thing but if the original dream team had been put together in 88 they wouldn’t have been as highly regarded…except for bird and magic. and if the 96 team had been put together in 92…they would have been full of untapped potential like this team. anyway as long as they win it won’t matter anyway. unless this team sticks together for the next two olympic games.
Sep.9 at 7:58 am
Dionisio says:
you didn’t mention how the rules of the modern day NBA made the players play like foosies when it comes to playing international styles.
Sep.9 at 10:03 am
Heri says:
They are not even the third best USA Basketball team ever un my book. The one at the World Championships in 1994 was ahead of them too. Shaq, Alonzo, Kemp, Reggie, Do,…Mark Price, ahahah.
Sep.9 at 5:41 pm
Mike says:
how bout a new issue guys
Sep.9 at 10:41 pm
Ben Osborne says:
Mike,
The off season is when we do KICKS (which has been on sale for about 3 weeks now). Next regular SLAM (our back-to-school issue) will hit newsstands this week.
Sep.10 at 10:19 am
Ben Hogan says:
Mitch Richmond would bust Michael Redd. Im old school but (hell Im Ben Hogan) but Im taking Kobe, Bron, and Melo any day over Pip, GHill, and Penny.
Sep.10 at 2:34 pm
Fontaine says:
Yo Twist, good post, good analysis. That Kobe/Bron/Melo vs Penny/GHill/Pippen might be a stretch, because we have yet to see the full potential of the young dudes. And for the record, you need to quit lookin at Stockton’s marble-hugger shorts from 2nd grade P.E. class and buy a book. Get a paperback!
Sep.11 at 1:46 pm
Pablo (ARGENTINA) says:
92 is the greatest team in the history of team sports. period
Sep.11 at 5:33 pm
Brandon says:
This years olympic team is definitely thrid. People tend to skip the ‘96, but in a scrimmage, the ‘96 team would wax the ‘07 team.
Sep.12 at 9:52 am
MC Sh!thead says:
The trio of Pip-Hill-Penny in 96 was better than the trio of Kobe-Bron-Melo. The only thing the 07 trio does better is score. That’s it. Passing? Rebounding? Defense? 96 is miles ahead in all 3. And the 96 trio is not as far behind in scoring as it would seem when you look at their ppg averages. The current scoring averages are due to a bunch of offensive-friendly rules, first introduced in 1999-00. You can even see this in the progress of one player from the 96 trio. Grant Hill’s scoring skyrocketed from 21 to 26 ppg between 1998-99 and 1999-00 seasons, that’s when they started introducing the offensive-friendly rules that increased the scoring averages of virtually every single star player. In 1995, averaging 25 points was a huge deal, today it’s like “so what else is new?”. There are like 15 players who average 25+. Look at the dominant stars of the 90s: Pippen, Hill, Penny, Kemp, Payton. All of them great offensive players, but none of them averaged over 22 ppg, except Hill and Payton in 1999-00 when their scoring averages increased drastically due to the new offense-friendly rules. And the 1996 dream team in general is underrated. People forget this team, but the fact is that it wasn’t far behind the 1992 dream team. And what’s more, the 1992 DT lost their game against the college squad, the 1996 didn’t. And the 1996 DT didn’t have a weak link like Christian Laettner on the 92 squad. Whoever you think is the worst player on the 96 team, he is miles ahead of Laettner.
Sep.12 at 3:39 pm
Cris says:
Ooook…Maybe Pippen did have better D than Kobe..slightly but definitely not by much. But his offensive game is completely eclipsed by Kobe’s. Penny was amazing. But as I have said before, if you put 92 Penny on this last years Cavs, they don’t even make they playoffs let alone the NBA Finals. Lebron has demonstrated that he can play team ball or take over like he did in the East Finals against a Detroit team full of “seasoned veterans with high bball IQ’s” blah blah blah…25 points straight. Penny could never do that. Next subject..Rings…Rings are the reason people play. Championships. Yes ‘92 has more rings. But having more rings does not mean you are automatically better. There are too many Hall of Fame quality players who never got rings Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, etc. Then there are poeple like John Salley who got dang somethin like 7 or 8 and averaged 5 minutes of playing time for them. Rings is not an automatic indicator for greatness. Bron doesn’t have a ring. Is John Salley Better than Lebron James? LOL
Sep.29 at 2:02 pm
Nicky C says:
why in the world did it take me this long to find and read this article? thank you, vincent thomas, for writing this. thank you. please forward it to espn and si, because they need a reality check.
Jan.12 at 4:28 am
FRED ABENOJA says:
i think KG & TD is dbest centerposition,pierce,allen,redd,carter& marion forwardp,iverson,arenas & kidd in guard p.that team is a good 2008 USA DREAMTEAM.we need score 4 d DREAMTEAM!!!not a style LIKE fashion!!!go go go dream team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!