Vince and the Revolution
For the Nets, it’s looking a lot like 1999. Time for a new power regeneration.
by Russ Bengtson
*WARNING: This post is a compiled (and somewhat rewritten and added to) version of a number of my comments from today’s Post Up. Just in case it sounds familiar.*
With all apologies to Gary Sussman, I really hate the Nets right now. Allow me to explain. I feel like a big part of the reason Isiah Thomas hasn’t been fired yet (besides the fact that Jimmy Dolan is a thick-skulled nincompoop) is that the rest of the East—particularly the Nets—has been playing so badly. Hopefully the Bulls’s win last night (and the Heat’s win the night before) mean both of those teams are turning it around so the Knicks can be left alone in the cellar. With the lights out.
But let’s talk about the Nets for a bit. The prevailing opinion seems to be that they should trade Jason “Migraine” Kidd—their allegedly disgruntled 34-year-old All-Star point guard. The primary reasons appear to be that a) he’s disgruntled, b) he’s 34 years old, and c) several teams are interested in acquiring the Human Triple Double. This is all well and good. However, I have a different view of things.
If I were Rod Thorn, I’d try and trade Vince Carter first. I watched some of last night’s game (a home loss to the Clippers) and every time I looked up Vince was settling for the outside jumper. And dude’s been way off-target from three this season—his percentage is lower than (among many others) Eduardo Najera’s and Jason Richardson’s. I don’t get it. How can a player as athletic as VC not be constantly cutting to the basket when he’s playing with Jason Kidd? If I were Thorn, I’d offer Vince to the first team that would send a couple of athletic youngsters back.
(This goes back to my not understanding why GMs build teams based on talent instead of style of play. Hey Rod, you have the best fast-break point guard in the League, who’s made a CAREER out of getting the most out of guys who run. How about getting some of those? And while we’re being all honest and stuff, keeping Mikki Moore—even for $18 mil—would have been a better move than signing Jamaal Magloire. I’m just saying.)
Anyway, I think I’ve got the perfect deal. How about Vince and Josh Boone to the Knicks for Renaldo Balkman, Jamal Crawford and Jared Jeffries? If nothing else, that trade would be some Malcolm Gladwell sh*t to Knick fans and beatwriters. And it’s the kind of deal that Isiah just can’t seem to resist. Come on Isiah, you know you wanna. Fleece Rod Thorn! Vince has been an All-Star a LOT! Just imagine the press conference! And hey, No. 15’s only been retired twice. Third time’s a charm!
Seriously, though, the Nets would be better off without Carter. Yes, he’s a perennial All-Star, a great talent, a crowd favorite (sometimes) and all of that stuff. But he only seems to run the floor when he really feels like it these days, and would much rather jack up threes than take his man off the dribble. He’d be better off playing with the half-pace Knicks. And Renaldo Balkman could be a monster running the floor with Kidd, Crawford would be a better option shooting the three than Carter is, and Jared Jeffries—as bad as he’s played in New York—would fit better with the Nets. As a further bonus, Jefferson would get more looks (and last I checked he’s fourth in the League in scoring).
The bottom line is it would be easier for the Nets to rebuild around Kidd than it would be to rebuild around Carter. They already have some of the right players around him. And in the East, as bad as it is, a Kidd-led Nets team should be contenders every year. I’d keep Jefferson, Sean Williams, Darrell Armstrong, Malik Allen and the Snackbar, and let it be known that everyone else is up for grabs. Surround Kidd with guys who are ready to run and let ‘em loose.
And while we’re at it, would someone please fire Lawrence Frank already? He seems like a really nice guy, and I’m sure he’s great with the X’s and O’s. But this ain’t tic-tac-toe. Sean Williams got a DNP last night, and as far as I’m concerned that alone is grounds for dismissal. And at the very least bring in someone who realizes that Jason Collins shouldn’t be playing ever. The guy doesn’t rebound (2.5 rpg in 19.5 minutes a game), can’t score (26 points total all season), and—as far as I can tell—his biggest talent is drawing charges. Which means he’s good at standing still. Heck, Sly could do that job.
Keeping in mind that Vince can’t be traded until December 15th at the earliest, here’s two other possibilities I sort of like: Vince to the Bobcats for Jason Richardson and either Sean May or Primoz Brezec, and Vince to the Clippers for Corey Maggette and Sam Cassell.
66 Responses to “Vince and the Revolution”
Dec.12 at 4:10 pm
At The End Of The Day says:
zzzzzzzzzzzz
Dec.12 at 4:19 pm
Russ Bengtson says:
Thank you for your insightful and constructive criticism.
Dec.12 at 4:19 pm
white hot eboy says:
Damn, Mr. Efficiency.
Dec.12 at 4:22 pm
SMK says:
good post Russ, but a year too late - the time to trade Vince was last season, before he’d signed that terrrrible new deal. Now you’ve got to find someone with $15 million in cap space or take back an equally lousy contract.
Dec.12 at 4:33 pm
Allenp says:
you really dislike the knicks and isiah. But I agree that Wince is killing this team. Did anybody see when he got fouled on a three point shot last night, and lay on the ground holding his shin and wincing before finally getting up and missing two of three free throws. I really, really dislike Vince Carter’s game.
Dec.12 at 4:33 pm
Russ Bengtson says:
As ridiculous as his salary may be, he’s not even in the top THIRTY highest-paid players according to HoopsHype. He’s making something like $13 million this year. That’s not crazy in a world where Ben Wallace is making $15.5 and Stephon Marbury is making $20.1.
Dec.12 at 4:33 pm
Russ Bengtson says:
Vince Carter’s game fell off a cliff.
Dec.12 at 4:41 pm
Captain America says:
All this work for nuthin’ Thorn is not going to trade his franchise. Carter may have fallen off but he has gone through slumps before. Face it, the only reason there are Nets fans is because of Carter-Jefferson-Kidd. Nuthin’ is going to happen till the seasonal sell out (late winter ‘08, at earliest).
Dec.12 at 4:42 pm
At The End Of The Day says:
I quit reading after the “rehashed comments” disclaimer..sounds like I didn’t miss much
Dec.12 at 4:45 pm
Russ Bengtson says:
Memo to Captain America: Have you watched a Nets game lately? FANS AREN’T COMING AT ALL. They’ve seen this particular show, and it’s nothing to write home about. Throw a high-energy dude or two into the Kidd mix and maybe the team will actually start winning games–THAT might give the attendance a li’l boost.
Dec.12 at 4:47 pm
Captain America says:
I am a big Nets fan. Just don’t agree that Thorn is going to throw the baby out with da bath water.
Dec.12 at 4:53 pm
Tenorca says:
When you sign a guy who quits on an entire team because he’s a little biatch, you shouldn’t be surprised when he continues to be a little biatch in his home country. Vince just simply has never seemed to care and you’re never winning a title with a guy who’s as blase and passionless as VC. It just isn’t happening.
Dec.12 at 4:54 pm
Captain America says:
Is Nenad Krstic any closer to being full speed? He has been way off his game since the injury.
Dec.12 at 4:58 pm
Russ Bengtson says:
Supposedly Krstic is shutting himself down until January. When in January, I don’t know. I figure he really won’t be back to speed until next season.
Dec.12 at 5:01 pm
Tom says:
I feel your pain Russ, Raptor fans had to deal with this Vince during his last 2 years here, and it’s really frustrating. It wouldn’t be so bad if he wasn’t so freakishly athletic, but the fact that he IS and chooses to take it easy and still demand 15mil per year is enough to make you want to just trade him for nothing, as long as you get rid of him……oh wait, Raptors already did that.
Dec.12 at 5:09 pm
TADOne says:
I remember an reading either on here or in Slam magazine about a coversation Lang was having in a NBA locker room with a few players from, I believe, the Nets. The talk centered around 3 players and who would you take in a 1 on 1 competition. The 3 players were Vince, LeBron, and I think Wade. I think Lang picked LeBron and the players all laughed and said that Vince would pretty much kill all comers in a 1 on 1 competition. My, how times have changed.
Dec.12 at 5:40 pm
Cheryl says:
TAD, that’s probably still true when Vince is just hanging with the fellas. The problem is, he seems to have zero passion for the game he plays for money.
Dec.12 at 5:49 pm
TADOne says:
No argument there, Cheryl. It’s a shame because you see that out of him about 6-7 times a season where he in virtually unstoppable and scores 40-50 points at ease.
Dec.12 at 5:50 pm
Thomas says:
i don’t understand vince carter. i do however feel completely justified in thinking that paul pierce was robbed for ROY back in the day.
Dec.12 at 6:01 pm
Schragz says:
Russ–Good stuff. As I told Henry Abbott at TrueHoop today, the season was summed up on two plays this week– 1. Friday–Jamal Magloire grabs a rebound, pivots, and steps out of bounds before throwing an errant outlet pass. Rockets ball. 2. Tuesday–Antoine Wright’s layup that hit nothing but the box. No rim. No net. Nothing. Just a straight bang-bang off the backboard. I love this team. It’s killing me watching this happen. Get Darrell Armstrong in there. Do something. As for Sean W., dude’s got to learn how to play D without fouling. Knicks game–I think he played 5 minutes and committed 5 fouls. After the Nets game I watched Baron and the Warriors and got depressed. That’s how we used to play.
Dec.12 at 6:34 pm
Chief says:
they need a high energy big man i think. Jermaine O’neal for Carter?
Dec.12 at 6:43 pm
minikidd says:
I just hope Nets holds on to Kidd, at least until new years because i GOTTA see him when I come to the states for the 1.st time ever around new years.. I’m going to see Nets vs Detroit!! Can’t wait!
Dec.12 at 6:48 pm
The Cool says:
Get off Jason Collins man! Like you said in yo article the “Numbers Game” or whatever, if he just played 40 minutes a night he would be a freakin beast of nature. play wit it.
Dec.12 at 6:58 pm
Dutch Rich says:
Vince will go down as one of the most awe inspiring players of all time. Can’t quite say the same about PP, sorry. Thanks Russ for writing this piece because last night I was planning on posting a request for one of you guys to write about this problem that happens to be my favorite team. First of lil’ Frank gotta go. As a coach he’s unable to close out games which was very apparent last year. I’m talking about drawing up game winning plays. This year he doesn’t seem to get through to his players and I’m still waiting for him to scold Vince for his lack of effort. Last night there was a clear path foul called on Jefferson grabbing Corey while Jason Kidd the other defender was clearly a couple feet ahead of the ball. That’s the type of sh** were as a coach on a three game loosing streak against the worst teams in the L you opt for that technical foul on the sideline. Hell, get tossed just for the sake of firing up the troops and the darn fans. But nah, lil F just gets red in the face, does his tweety bird pout and looks down at the floor as if there were a solution to be figured out for situations like that. He seems to coach based on some kind of code instead of looking at the glaring results. If they don’t trade he should at most come of the bench. Let him give max effort for 20 min and let Boki and Wright do the slashing and the running. Vince is obviously trying to preserve his longevity by not bending his knees, probably doctors orders. I don’t hate the guy, I’m one of his biggest fans. But this will ruin his rep completely and destroy the team as well and provoke plenty more migraines.
Dec.12 at 7:25 pm
Jkidd5 says:
Vince blows. I’ve been saying this exactly since the 05′-06′ season started. I watch every game. he does not care, he does not try.
Dec.12 at 7:55 pm
Ian says:
Vince is terrible…ship him to Philly for Evans and Andre Miller (as a safety should Kidd bail). I wouldn’t be surprised if VC starts a Victoria’s Secret for men called “Vince’s Secret”
Dec.12 at 8:04 pm
bobbo says:
The Nets cannot shoot worth a lick. None of those trades solve a damn thing and why would the Nets want Renaldo Balkman? Balkman is a product of New York hype, nothing more. Antoine Wright is a better player at the same position.
Dec.12 at 8:25 pm
Larry says:
What a ridiculous post. So Russ watched some of the Nets-Clippers game last night and based on an off night from Carter (and some other Nets players as well)suggests the Nets should trade Carter? And trade him to the Knicks for that crap? Sounds more like you have nothing else better to write about. Hey, Dirk and Joe Johnson’s 3-point shooting has been way off-target so far this season (also lower than Nejeras and Richardsons) - trade them to the Knicks for garbage! The Nets would be better off without Carter? Helloooooooooooooo? They are 0-5 without him this season.
Dec.12 at 8:32 pm
Gerard Himself says:
all these Prince references are brilliant.
Anyway, Russ, you’re right, Vince should be traded. Not to the Knicks, but other than that: yes. And yeah, keep the ones you named, and whoever gets traded, gets traded. Jason Kidd is still the man, RJ is playing great, and Sean Williams should start every damn game. But fire Frank? Not sure about that. The players just don’t bring the effort. His fault? And if he’s gone, which coach should replace him? Name names, there’s not much out there. Like beatwriter Dave D. said: you would have a new coach, the team will win some games, and after that they fall into the same habits.
Dec.12 at 8:47 pm
geo says:
yeah! The Carter experiment is over. It worked to help us forget losing Martin and Kittles, but he’s too complacent and settles too much. But seriously, Crawford? Jeffries? Get real. Bachmann, yes, Lee, yes, Jones, yes, and no one else on the Knicks.
Dec.12 at 9:11 pm
Sesa says:
eboy, Kidd to the Heat?
Dec.12 at 9:27 pm
mo says:
I completely agree and have since last season …trade Vince to anyone for some young hungry talented legs that go to the basket!
how about to dallas for harris and change kidd is the draw not carter … thanks
mo
Dec.12 at 9:28 pm
NetRick says:
Fire Farnk… I agree. He over coaches. Put Williams uot there and let him play.
Dec.12 at 9:36 pm
J Boi says:
ive been saying trade carter for the past yearrrr..id rather they trade him then jefferson kidd or even sean williams..
Dec.12 at 9:37 pm
J Boi says:
btw ive been a net fan pretty much all my life
Dec.12 at 9:56 pm
Lu says:
How are you going to judge VC on one game? Honestly, the nets can’t win without him and they’ve proven it.Kidd and VC have made a great combo since VC came in 2004. Stop hating and get ur facts right!
Dec.12 at 10:26 pm
BS says:
Carter is playing like garbage, but I completely agree with the Nets firing Frank. HE IS THE WORST. S.Will should never see a DNP especially with a team playing lazy and slow. Collins gets 20 minutes a game over Williams??? You’ve got to be kidding me….fire frank.
Dec.12 at 11:19 pm
sussman sez says:
What a plug…first line…in the words of Benoit Benjamin-circa 1996…’much love’…all the best to you, Lang, Applesauce and Ben during this Holiday season…join us for an extra dog at halftime before this glorious 2007 cones to a close…and enjoy the view from the halo….
Dec.12 at 11:55 pm
Ben Osborne says:
Ouch, Suss is threatening to return us to the halo! And Chief, J-O hasn’t been high energy in three years.
Dec.13 at 12:40 am
Barry from Brooklyn says:
Thanks Russ, You are 100% correct on everything. Lfrank is too in awe of JKidd and Vince to get on them. He’s also very stubborn with his rotations. Does not always have the right guys in the game. The game against the Clippers screamed to have Sean Williams in it. His explanation was lame as well. What happened to Wince’s game? I don’t think he really works out in the summer, he’s really weak. The whoop-di-do shots have been disguising his lack of strength. Now that he has lost his hops that stuff does not fly. And he makes it worse with the wincing moans while going to the hoop. Refs don’t buy it anymore. What’s up with the turnovers? I can understand JKIdd’s turnovers somewhat because he is trying to convince himself that he has some higflyers next to him and he does not. He’s “Alley..ing and no ones “Ooping”. “HAS ANYONE SEEN THE ROPE” OH, I THINK WINCE HAS IT.
Dec.13 at 12:45 am
fire frank says:
this article is right on. frank seems to always be a step slow. the guy is great at analyzing his mistakes, he just needs to get better at not making them. Sean Williams should be playing as many minutes as the big three. I agree that the players that should be on the court should be running at all times, Frank knows that, you can hear him screaming to run every play. If I were coach I wouldn’t put a player on the court incapable or unwilling to run on the court with Kid. With Kristic down I would start Williams and Allen. First guy to replace them is Maglore, I don’t think this guy has had a real chance. He isn’t a runner so I think you put him in for some minutes with Kid but mostly with your 2nd string point. He isn’t going to be an elite center but given a chance I think Maglore can prove to be highly efficient on the boards and in dunks. Think about it, there are maybe 1 or 2 plays in which Collins gets the ball close enough to the basket to dunk but unable to finish he is blocked. Maglore can finish around the rim and punish opposing teams for doubling off the center position.
Dec.13 at 12:57 am
Russ Bengtson says:
I love the halo! A best to you and yours as well, just in case I don’t get to experience it before then.
Dec.13 at 2:12 am
Jon says:
I love Knicks logic. How about this: since VC is sooooooo horrible now, let’s do you NYK a favor and quarantine him from them. You guys keep Jeffries, Crawford and Balkman; thank us later…
Dec.13 at 2:26 am
squaleca says:
nets record with VC 9 - 8
nets record without 0 - 5 so if u put VC on boston and Pierce in New Jersey?? why dont you people think before you post??
Dec.13 at 3:37 am
T Money says:
Someone should kidnap Vince Carter, tie him up for days and force him to watch videos of puppies being trampled to death.
Dec.13 at 3:41 am
Boing Dynasty says:
Carter to Toronto for Juan Dixon and Maceo Baston.
Dec.13 at 3:57 am
jvcn says:
Carter is the biggest deciding factor in determining wins for the Nets. When he plays well they win, he plays badly they lose. The Nets longest win streaks had VC averaging over 30 a game. I understand where you want him to run the floor more but that hasn’t been his MO for years now. It’s just something you learn to live with, because he’s still capable of chugging up 20, 5, 5 even on an unenthaused night. The reason why he hasn’t been up to par this season is partly due to injuries, but mostly because of Frank. His system (which is garbage) uses him mostly as a decoy for RJ, who I’ll remind you is quickly becoming a one-dimensional scorer with one of his worst FG% (worst than VC’s actually at this point) and refuses to pass the ball. And even when VC’s playing with the second unit where he should be the primary scorer, instead of put on the blocks and told to be aggressive, he’s 30 feet away on pick-and-rolls. Fire Frank. Can someone tell me what he does well? Bad rotations and substitutions, horrible offense, defense ain’t so hot either. I mean really not playing Sean Williams is ATROCIOUS.
Dec.13 at 4:01 am
T Money says:
I don’t blame Vince for trying to lengthen his career, especially considering how injury prone he is. And in my opinion, anyone who can put up 25-5-6 deserves that 13 million, or whatever he’s getting.
Dec.13 at 5:33 am
Gerard Himself says:
Sesa: Kidd to the Heat? Are you drunk by any chance?
Dec.13 at 6:11 am
Jake Appleman says:
Sez, I have bones to pick with Russ on this one–later, Applesauce needs a little while; it’s currently 5:10AM–and I do not enjoy the halo as much as the hockey box. That stated, please let me enjoy the hockey box after Russ and I have a public disagreement sometime in the near future…
Dec.13 at 10:19 am
white hot eboy says:
Sesa, if the Nets chose to rebuild then maybe yeah. They could trade Kidd anywhere at that point. I do think that if they moved him he would go to a veteran team, like the Heat, Mavs or Cavs, or a team missing punch like the Lakers. It could happen. Just depends on how poorly they continue to play.
Dec.13 at 11:46 am
Jared says:
I think the argument was that Collins sucks and isn’t nearly as productive as he should be for the minutes he sees. Vince Carters such a phony. It sucks that they really used to compare this guy to Jordan, glad he cares about his legacy.
Dec.13 at 2:10 pm
tbb says:
stop blaming vince. he’s had enough. why don’t we put our blame on Frank. its like he does not know how to use his players. Sean WIlliams DNP, Collins getting minutes and all that…
Dec.13 at 3:20 pm
Paps says:
I miss the old Vince.
Dec.13 at 3:22 pm
arthur says:
The Cool: 2.5 rebounds in 19.5 minutes works out as 5.1 rebounds per 40 minutes. play wit it.
Dec.13 at 5:29 pm
jkedsf1 says:
how about vince for k-mart? hmmm…
Dec.13 at 5:31 pm
jkedsf1 says:
plus j.r. smith?
Dec.13 at 7:00 pm
50LD13R says:
You know there is a lot of true things here said about VC, but on the other hand there are those who have no idea what they are talking about. I have been a VC fan since his Carolina days and have watched many, many, many, many performances of his, good and bad. To me Vince Carter was going to be the greatest or so his talent showed but as a lot of you have said, he has no passion. I think that is what has held him back. Just think, if he had the heart of KG and went out there with a KG mentality, don’t you think we’d see a poster every night or a 30+ performance. Honestly, do you think that he simply forgot the moves and the tomahawks-like-nobody-else vicious slams that he used to do in his old days? NO, he’s not passionate enough to pull them off. He thinks of the game as a job and a routine procedure which “I” think he is getting tired of. Vince Carter is going down in history to me as the player that could have been…. It’s a shame really, because (IMO) I don’t think we’ll ever see another 360 or windmill or tomahawk as graceful or beautiful as Vince did it. AND IN TERMS OF VINCE DOING “BAD” THIS SEASON, DON’T JUST LOOK AT THE BOX SCORE, WATCH THE GAME AND YOU’LL SEE WHY THE NETS EVEN STAY TOGETHER AS A TEAM. THE TEAM CHEMISTRY HAS FLOPPED AND EVERY SUPERSTAR ON THE NETS (kidd and jefferson) -EXCEPT- CARTER HAS CAME OUT AND CRITICIZED THE CHEMISTRY AND GMS AND EVERYTHING. KIDD DOESN’T WANT TO EVEN PLAY FOR THE NETS ANYMORE. AND DON’T BLAME CARTER, THEY WEREN’T GOING ANYWHERE BEFORE HE GOT THERE. BLAME FRANK.
Dec.13 at 7:38 pm
FLUXLAND says:
Russ, you are out of control. Last year, all you SLAM guys were like: OHHHH!!! VC contract year.. you know what that means!!!! Now, it’s like: yeah, VC sucks. Meanwhile 10 posters on here were saying the guy cannot play bball. And now Kidd has finally figured that out and he wants out. I just want to know, what effing GM would be dumb enough to trade for VC? Please find this guy and try to get him to take Stargarbage . And, BTW I love how he bailed and cheated his team mates in TO and now ppl don’t want to play with him… AAAAhhhh.. KARMA! Man, I hate VC more then anyone. I hope he piles up on the floor soon, holding his ankle and no one ever hears from him again. Rat bastard!!
Dec.13 at 7:40 pm
FLUXLAND says:
@tbb: stop blaming vince? You are kidding, right? If Kidd cannot figure out how to use Vince, you really think Frank can? You cannot use a player that doesn’t know how to play team ball.
Dec.13 at 8:55 pm
Paps says:
Only Oakley made Vince play hard. Or else he would slap him around.
Dec.13 at 9:28 pm
tbb says:
@FLUXLAND: i dint say Frank doent know how to use VC. i was referring to other players on the roster. How can you say he doesnt know how to play team ball if he keeps on passing the ball to anyone and doesnt want to take shots. we all know what the problem with VC is, and those are his jump shots and drive to the basket awareness. But team play?? cmon man! everyone in the nBA can play team ball except for kobe. peace!
Dec.13 at 9:31 pm
tbb says:
try to fire frank first then if it doesnt work out, then find a deal for VC or RJ, whoever would work…
Dec.14 at 4:09 am
michael lamarre says:
The problem is not the big three, its Lawrence Frank!! he doesent add any fire to the team. He is setting up Carter 30 feet away from the rim with these pick and rolls. Carter needs more isolation or more cut plays to the basket. He is still starting Collins, which doesent open up the middle on the offensive end. Carter is struggling an still he is averaging 20-5-4, Kidd 11-10-8, Jefferson 24-5-2 and look at their record. He dont know how to utilize the team. FIRE FRANK!! HIRE A BIG TIME COACH FOR BIG TIME PLAYERS!(KIDD,CARTER AND JEFFERSON)
Dec.14 at 10:44 am
geoff pelosi says:
CAN YOU PLEASE FORWARD THIS OR SOMEHOW GET THIS EXACT ARTICLE TO ROD THORN AND ALL OTHERS NETS MANAGEMENT? PLEASE!!!!!!!
Dec.14 at 7:05 pm
FLUXLAND says:
@tbb: ok, perhaps he may know how.. but that doesn’t mean he does (play team ball). If you watched TNT last Thr. Charles B. was making the same point about AI. VC only passes cuz he has no other options left. Not because its the right play. And Kidd may look like a great point guard, but he only makes his stats better not his team mates. Re: Kobe - can you blame him? When your team mates suck and you know you can score… what’s a man to do? I think I can understand that.