Old School Friday : When America could play ball
By Sam Rubenstein Team USA, the squad built on young multi-millionaire superstars sacrificing their individual numbers for the common good of victory (VICTORY!), has gone down in flames, although this time it took a little bit longer than usual. There’s plenty of time to get into what went wrong, but this is Old School Friday, when we look back to the past and think about those good ‘ol days.
Old School Fri-day. With a three-day weekend coming up. Team USA, the squad built on young multi-millionaire superstars sacrificing their individual numbers for the common good of victory (VICTORY!), has gone down in flames, although this time it took a little bit longer than usual. Make all the jokes you want. Call him LeBronze. Say the closest that Carmelo will get to gold is being a nugget. Blame Kobe or Coach K for being Kobe and Coach K. There’s plenty of time to get into what went wrong, but this is Old School Friday, when we look back to the past and think about those good ‘ol days.
The original Dream Team. Some call it the greatest team ever assembled, and they are right. Chuck Daly was the coach and he never called a timeout during the run. No team will ever live up to their standard, and outside of a Barkley elbow or inflammatory statement or two, they won it with class all the way. You know the names of the players and how great they all were. Moving on.
The 1994 World Championship team, what you could call Dream Team II. America dominated again, but as for the classy part, well… here’s a look at the roster:
Derrick Coleman
Larry Johnson
Shawn Kemp
Reggie Miller
Alonzo Mourning
Shaq
These guys were all villains at the time cause of their swagger. And by swagger, I mean guys grabbing themselves and posing after every dunk. I remember watching one game that the U.S. won by 40 or so, and Shaq cherry-picked on the last play and threw the ball off the backboard to himself and tried to tear down the rim to end the game. It was very much an NBA Street vol. 2 moment. Reggie hadn’t become the old statesman and ambassador of the game yet, and was still the guy that would hit a three to beat your team, then take bows at center court and live off the booing. Shaq was a rapper.
But look who else was on this team:
Mark Price
Kevin Johnson
Joe Dumars
Okay, so they also had maybe three of the classiest players ever. Now that’s balance! Oh and they also had Thunder Dan, Steve Smith, and Los Angeles Clipper Dominique Wilkins. Isiah Thomas and Tim Hardaway were both injured and didn’t play.
The coach was… hey, maybe it’s not Old School Friday. Don Nelson of the Golden State Warriors!
The closest game was the opener against Spain, which was a 115-100 win. The rest of the scores were all blowouts. My greatest memory of watching them that summer was McDonalds giving away free huge plastic cups and I would make milkshakes in my Derrick Coleman cup. I loved this team, and I didn’t see why everyone was getting so worked up about guys showing off after dunks. I was in high school at the time, and I cared more about rehearsing touchdown dances for my street football games than almost anything else. This was the team for me.
The third installment was for the ‘96 Olympics in Atlanta. Barkley threw some guy out of a window or something, and the NBA was in it’s awkward oh my God let’s promote every player in the league as the next Michael Jordan phase (Maybe they’re still in that phase?). The roster had some recycled players from Team USAs of the past: Barkley, Stockton, Malone, Reggie, Shaq, Pippen, and David Robinson. The new guys were Penny, Grant Hill, Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, and U.S. citizen Hakeem Olajuwon. No close games, and they were led by coach Lenny Wilkens to that 8-0 record and the gold. This started getting boring we were so far ahead of the game.
In 1998, there was the matter of the NBA lockout, so no current NBA players were on the team, and the U.S. came in third at the World Basketball Championships. Brad Miller was on that team and he would go on to become the best NBA player on the squad. Where was it played? Greece. Since this is my Old School Friday look back to happier times, I’m skipping over this one.
2000 came, and this would be the last gasp of American basketball greatness. Many of the best American players were too tired from going deep in the playoffs, so the team that went was KG, Vince, Kidd, Shareef, Vin Baker, Alan Houston, Tim Hardaway, Antonio McDyess, Mourning, Payton, and Steve Smith, led by Rudy T. Only five of those players were even good enough to make the All-NBA third team. Still, most of the wins were blowouts. Lithuainia almost beat the U.S. twice, with America surviving a Sarunas Jasikevicius desperation three in the semi-final. America won the gold with another 8-0 run, and in a game against France, Vince Carter pulled off the greatest in-game dunk over another player ever that most of us have ever seen.
The Vince dunk has become what American basketball is. We don’t need no passing or shooting or coaching or play calling or fundamentals or defense. If there’s a seven footer standing near the basket, just jump over him and yell when you land.
And that was the last time the United States of America would compete internationally in basketball, much like the last shot of Michael Jordan’s career won the Finals for the Chicago Bulls, the only professional team he ever played for. 2002 in Indianapolis, 2004 in Athens, and last night/this morning never happened.
That’s my trip down NBA player USA basketball memory lane. How about everyone shares some memories of those great teams of the past and agrees to never speak of anything since the year 2000. Thanks.
76 Responses to “Old School Friday : When America could play ball”
Sep.1 at 12:47 pm
Allen says:
LeBronze. Ouch.
Sep.1 at 1:00 pm
Allen says:
Here’s a Lang-Style rundown of the game as it happened. http://www.thebasketballjones.net/2006/09/01/usa-vs-greece-the-live-blog/
Sep.1 at 1:04 pm
Daniel says:
I’ve got no need to be forgetting about it. There’s great basketball being played, and just because I’m not Greek doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy watching a good run. And just because I’m from the US doesn’t mean I have to be crushed by a loss. It’s more like the All-Star game. You watch a random collection of some of your favorite players, you hope for great plays and a close ending, and the final score is secondary to watching some of the best basketball players in the world do their thing. Oh, and isn’t Allen Iverson an All-Star MVP?
Sep.1 at 1:06 pm
winston and the telescreen says:
i’ve never see that vince carter dunk before
anyone have a youtube link?
Sep.1 at 1:08 pm
Bryant Reeves says:
Jamison, Brand, Miller, Howard and Bosh played a total of 30 minutes… COMBINED! What the hell was coach Krazy thinking?
Howard had 10 and 7 in 13 minutes, why didn’t he play more?
Something tells me team USA is going to bring a freethrow coach along next time.
Sep.1 at 1:10 pm
Homie says:
you’ve never seen that vc dunk before? What are you, twelve?
Sep.1 at 1:13 pm
J says:
I saw France play a few times during the world championship, and Frederic Weis was wearing the nike shox VC V (Vince Carter’s signature shoe). I would think he would want to disassociate himself with Carter but a good show is a good shoe I guess.
Sep.1 at 1:26 pm
Dutch Rich says:
Yo Bryant. I propose Rick Barry for free throw coach.
Sep.1 at 1:29 pm
Santtu says:
Just a quick note: Sorry to rain on your parade, but, as I recall it, that 2000 US team acted without any class whatsoever (the worst culprit being, of course, VC, who yelled his lungs out after every made jumper) and always looked totally uninterested, listless even. I remember this because I used to stay up till 3 or 4 am to watch those games, and felt bitterly disappointed after every game. That US squad felt so spiritless and utterly arrogant it was a small miracle they didn’t lose in the 2000 games. The reason they didn’t is probably that they still had enough shooting to patch up deficiencies in other areas - such as effort and team play. Secondly, at that point, they could still overcome other countries by talent alone, and, thirdly, other teams still seemed somewhat in awe of them. Well, as we know, that proved to be the tipping point, and I would argue that, instead of the 2000 games representing an era when the national team could still ball, it was a tournament where the seeds for later things to come were sown. Having said that, I’ve got to admit that I was totally surprised by the outcome of the semifinal game. I thought they might have actually reclaimed the throne this time.
Sep.1 at 1:39 pm
Sam Rubenstein says:
I agree the seeds were sown in 2000. Especially in the Lithuania games. That Vince dunk was one of the most superhuman basketball feats ever though. I mean, just the confidence to try it shows you where America’s cockiness was.
Sep.1 at 1:40 pm
Dutch Rich says:
The Fred Weis dunk is to me the greatest in game dunk ever. Bigger than Dr J over Coop, bigger than Kemp over anybody and bigger than The entire Come Fly with Me tape. It’s unfortunate that there are no fancy NBA camera angles and sophisticated lighting available for that dunk. Not to mention the goofy afro Vince is sporting. All these thoughts are making me thirsty for the VC Highlight reel, which will be one of the sickest archives on data.
This primal display of athleticism and creativity says a lot about Vince Carter’s basketball instinct.
Greatest in game dunk EVER!!!!
Sep.1 at 1:50 pm
Dutch Rich says:
To Santtu I would like to say that your confusing VC with KG who was acting like a total dick for the entire tournament. A lot of screaming and exagerated body language. Matter of fact, KG who was standing right next to Fred Weis when the whole dunk unfolded, was screaming louder than anybody. Most of us know now that that is part of Garnett’s personality, no harm intended. But basketball fans around the world and the players as well took great offense by this behavior. And you are right that this was probably the point where the extra incentive was created to try to put the US flat on their asses.
Sep.1 at 1:56 pm
Mark says:
Vinsanity was definitely the worst. The Sydney 2000 crowds started chanting “wanker…wanker…” at him after his on-court antics against Australia — including standing over Andrew Gaze (all-time international leader in points) after he fell to the ground and subsequently getting into a tussle with Shane Heal (formerly of the T’wolves). He also managed to take out one of the referees and break his arm, meaning they had to bring on a replacement. There’s a youtube somewhere that shows all of this. In the press conference after the game Vince had to ask what “wanker” meant — the reporters explained that it means that he plays with himself (apt on so many levels).
Sep.1 at 2:21 pm
SWAT says:
Those Big McDonald cups were the shit! Also have to applaud the reference to the Lipton Dunk!
Sep.1 at 2:28 pm
555star says:
“Somewhere in the world Kobe Bryant is smiling” HAHAHAHAHAHHA. OPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!
Sep.1 at 2:41 pm
Thomas says:
I remember the ‘94 team the most cause the tournament was in Toronto that year, and I think that was probably the most impressive team in that it was the perfect balance of raw athleticism and pure skill. I mean with the dream team, they just played literally perfect ball and were too classy to showboat at all, but that ‘94 was beating by almost just as much of a margin in a much more exciting way, I mean kemp was dunking on everyone and reggie and thunder dan were launching from 10 feet behind the arc and not missing……it was almost scary how they were dominating, it the dream team is the greatest team ever assembled, the ‘94 team is the most bad ass team ever, because unlike future version they more than backed it up
Sep.1 at 2:47 pm
B Ball I.Q. says:
I take it all back Kobe needs to be on this team, they had no leadership. It’s sad when talent can’t win out. And coach K, oh my god run plays, Iso’s don’t work internationally, but thats all we ran. We need Redd, Billups, damn anyone who can shot an open J, I know these guys are sick to their stomachs, and somewhere Gilbert is laughing because Hinrich’s travel in the corner on the open J was the turning point (what the f— was he thinking). Get Amare get Greg Oden and get another coach beccause the USA needs help.
Sep.1 at 2:47 pm
Bryan Manga says:
soo its back home for usab, they failed once again. let this be known to all: BASKETBALL IS A GLOBAL GAME. THE REST OF THE WORLD HAS CAUGHT UP WITH THE USA. USA talked and boast of the best talents…..? Oh..remember what kobe Bryant said? he said talents will not take you anywhere…but hardwork will. Its a shame. Im not an american, but i support the USAB, i love the NBA. However i got say that the rest of the world have surpassed the usa. To hell with big names, big contracts, huge sneaker deals……please americans go out there and play the real basketball game. Its not about dunks and acrobatic layups any more. Its about fundermentals.
So then what next for team usa? Get a healthy Kobe, bring in a shooter..Ray Allen or Micheal Redd, put Billups at the point and…..remember to consider Artest, Sheed Wallace. With that said, probably a redemption awaits.
Sep.1 at 2:49 pm
winston and the telescreen says:
12×2 just to clear up any confusion
Sep.1 at 2:54 pm
Shiz says:
Gimme a break!! I thought Aussies were supposed to be tough!! You fall in basketball (shit happens), sometimes dudes stand over you (shit happens), don’t cry, pick yo bitch ass up!! Cuz we dominated. Its just a culture clash. Like when your in hot ass orlando at Disney, been in the line for like 5 hours and that damnable tour group from brazil or whereever start their “we’re bored as hell, but happy as hell to be in the US at disney” songs. Anyone who’s been to disney during the summer months knows what Im talking about. We think, what in God’s name are you singing and clappin for. You’re only making this long ass hot-as-shit line hotter!! Americans love the dunk. Dunking is a primal, beautiful thing and Vince is the best at that. As the good Doctor (Erving) said, its part intimidation, part flash, part message. U get in this lane when I go up, we gone have problems. Dunks should never be quiet. Unless they’re what I call “swish-dunks”. A big leap, hard throw down and a ever-so-soft tap on the rim (like testin it for heat).So what if a silverback beats on his chest. He jumped CLEAR over dudes head! Dude didn’t even have time or common sense enough to fall down to make it a little less traumatic or open to debate. He just stayed upright, making it official. Sure you had some questionable character guys, but I just saw it as the answer to DreamTeam’s uber-professional, crystal clean image. Lest we forget that that’s exactly what it was, an “image”. Mully was a drunk, we all know about Jordan’s gambling issues, Big PU loves them titty-bars, Magic loved the ladies and Zeke and Magic were STILL feuding. So, its like every team takes on the identity of its strongest character, the original’s being Jordans need to come off impeccably fly -no lint. DT2 was like, fuck that, we rock chains, we howl on dunks and dont really care if it hurts your feelings…beat us…cant? sux to be u. The rest of the world wasn’t ready to see the “uglier” side of basketball, how physically aggressive we play. they just wanna pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, cut, layup. We like to go up, chest to chest, somebody gets the best of somebody else. Intimidation is just as much a part of our game as pitchin batteries and racial slurs is for these overseas teams for the wg’s, so I guess it depends on which continent you lay your head at who the wanker is. Cuz from I lay my head, making slurs about someone when your team loses cuz they suck is called “hating”. Dont ask me to translate that, cuz it probably looses its meaning. So maybe we should start chanting “euro-trash” every time a team beats us in qualifying games (an all too real possibility)and acts like its just won the gold medal game. I know of at least one Euro that caused the magic to waiste a frickin lottery pick last year that I’d LOVE to chuck a D battery at! LOl. AND his name is Fran??? Oh, Im head huntin! I loved DT and DT2. I just sometimes wish DT hadn’t been such an international juggernaut. They set the bar waaaay too high. Dont get me wrong, gimme the gold, but its just like look, VC aint MJ, Penny aint Magic but that doesn’t mean that it is, or ever will be a love fest, cuz with international elbows flying, its anything goes. And we love “anything goes”. Besides, being called a “wanker” is not only tame by our standards, but means jack and shit when you’re the “winner”. (now if only this new crop could get their shit together)
Sep.1 at 2:58 pm
Myung says:
I’ll comment later, but I’ve got to give you some props Winston, for coming on here and posting that you’ve never seen that dunk before. That’s like going to some movie forum and saying, “I’ve never seen The Godfather. Was it a good movie?” That took some balls, sir…
Sep.1 at 3:00 pm
Shiz says:
SWAT- You damn right!! I STILL got my barkley cup and it has many, many beer miles on it!! LOL! And Bry, do you realize the size of the time bomb your wheeling into that arena if you put Crazy Ron-Ron on that court? Or Sheed? I can see the headline: Rasheed Wallace ejected from game for belittling the ref.
Q: Rock, what happened out there with the refs tonight?
A: Maaan, look…THESE BULLS DONT EVEN SPEAK NO ENGLISH!! But I guarantee a gold medal (sorry I couldn’t help it) Or howabout a nice Flagrant 2 from Ron-Ron right after checking in. LOL
Sep.1 at 3:10 pm
Myung says:
I’ve got this old VHS (yep, along with my Superstars and Dazzling Dunks tapes) tape of the 1992 team (I think it was made by NBC). My favorite part of it was the friendship that formed between Patrick Ewing and Larry Bird. I think they called it the “Larry and Hairy show” or something silly like that. That team had a cartoonish feel to it. Just a bunch of characters. Even the guys with no personality (Stockton, Mullin, Mailman, Admiral)…were fun characters. Hmm. That probably doesn’t make sense to anyone but me. Whatevers. But yeah, those were the days, man. Sort of like in the 80’s when I watched wrestling, you had characters like Junkyard Dog, Superfly Snuka, Andre the Giant, Macho Man. That was the original Dream Team to me. Just a sort of surreal experience. I still don’t think Laettner should’ve been on the team. His presence was the lone blemish of an otherwise great team. Not that he played badly or anything (plus, his collegiate credentials were outstanding). I just didn’t see the point of adding the “token college player” to the squad. Another memory: I heard that they assembled a college squad to play against the original Dream Team in a scrimmage(I think they had guys like Webber, Grant Hill, maybe Jason Kidd and Allan Houston?) and that team actually beat the Dream Team. Man, would I pay some good money to see that game and the expressions on the faces of MJ, Magic, and Barkley after that game. My favorite memory of ‘92 was Pip pulling the “Isiah Thomas in the ‘86 ASG” move on Croatia (I think it was on Kukoc, but I’m not 100% sure). Last thing: in 2000, I watched this game where the college stars played the US team. Did anyone else see this game (it was in Hawaii)? I remember Jason Richardson (circa his MSU days) went for 20 in the first half. But there were a few Vince Carter dunks in that game (in particular, the alley oop windmill to end the game) that just dropped my jaw. I know the Weis dunk was his best, but if anyone else saw this game I’m talking about, you know that Vince went nuts in that game (I think for the game, he didn’t miss one FG…it was a very similar stat line to the one pulled off by Iguodala in the Rookie Game this past year…all three’s and dunks…). OK…getting long already…I’ll end this post here.
Sep.1 at 3:40 pm
winston and the telescreen says:
I’m just one of those artsy musician types
(i can be googled for proof, winston-and-the-telescreen)
but I remember back in the day when I loved basketball and reading scoop jackson articles in slam (i’m talking grade school here)
i think the hardaway/sprewell mag was the first I ever bought
so even though I stopped passionately paying attention ever since van exel, ceballos and eddie jones disbanded
I’ve recently begun watching basketball again, although other than international competitions its still all lakers for me
and I remembered slam so I started reading the links here
but I’ve missed a good decade of hoops here so I’m sure I’m unaware of all sorts of dramatic defining moments
Sep.1 at 3:46 pm
DBlizzy says:
Sam, everytime you mention MJ, you mention that the Bulls are the only team he played for… WE KNOW THAT ALREADY! It’s almost as if he ruined the greatest ending to a career by coming out of retirement to play for some other team, and your trying to forget… Whatever it is Sam, you need to drop it.
Sep.1 at 3:59 pm
dkosei2 says:
Everybody who is a true basketball fan can remember where he was when he heard about or saw that VC dunk…
Sep.1 at 4:32 pm
Jas says:
Greece beating the US is good for the game of basketball. It shows that athleticism and one on one play are still second to team basketball, which, I guess, is a triumph for all those who aren’t born with 40-inch verticals and blazing speed.
Sep.1 at 4:47 pm
Hamond says:
Hey Lang, I miss those shots of the days where you would show different slam covers, and have a short little paragraph underneath. Could you guys put that back in the site?
Sep.1 at 5:09 pm
Shiz says:
Superstars and Dazzling dunks is my shit! I love the blooper reel and the Block Squad…starring Kareem Abdul Jabbar as “The Captain” and Charles Barkley as “himself” LOL! Woooo! that brings back memories! Im bout to get drunk an watch that tonight! And I remember the 2000 college/US game. Maurice Taylor was KILLIN Karl Malone. Absolutely KILLING him!!! I was like this dude is gonna be a problem in the L. Funny how stuff works out.
Sep.1 at 5:12 pm
Shiz says:
Shout out to Myung for name droppin the Original JYD and Jimmy the “SupaFly”. You forgot Ricky “The Dragon” Steamboat, Sting (before the corny Crow omage and bat) and… the Nature Boy!! WHOOOOO!!! He could take a open hand chop to the chest like no other!!
Sep.1 at 5:15 pm
Myung says:
so winston, basically you missed the 2nd (2 more rings) and 3rd (ugly) michael jordan eras, the shaqobe lakers, vince’s “everything i touch is gold” year 2000, and way too many more things to name. it’s funny how you stopped watching hoops just as that pretty bad lakers team was disbanded. i could understand if you stopped after shaq got traded, but the vanex/ceballos team? that’s pretty funny (i’m not laughing at you…i just think it’s funny). so…it must be somewhat amusing to you to see guys like charles barkley and scottie pippen and mark jackson and greg anthony on television, huh? man…i don’t know how i’d feel if i missed about a decade of nba hoops. i can’t imagine it. i don’t want to imagine it. but hey, welcome back to the greatest game in the world, man. you missed out on a lot, but thankfully, it’s ALL out there on the internet and dvd.
Sep.1 at 5:18 pm
Myung says:
what on earth? i wrote 2 instead of 3. THREE more rings. i’m surprised my computer didn’t zap my fingers for that mis-type.
Sep.1 at 5:34 pm
Xtapolapocetl says:
Ha ha, I remember that Shaq dunk off the backboard from the 94 World Championships. Check 2:36 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnyrKWvYdz4
Sep.1 at 5:42 pm
Chris Clarke says:
I’m looking at the Vince-on-Weiss poster on my wall right now - it’s on my wall here at work…for inspiration, of course. Sometimes I’ll just mutter to myself, “He jumped OVER his HEAD!” at random.
Sep.1 at 6:14 pm
CB4 needs time says:
I blame this all on coach k who should stick to the college game. We have guys like dwight howard, chris bosh, elton brand, and brad miller. They are taller than just about everyone in Greece. why play same size as other teams when you can force mixmatches. Why is Joe Johnson playin 25+ minutes?
Sep.1 at 7:00 pm
winston and the telescreen says:
pretty much
I remember feeling mild annoyance when they traded for shaq
(which was quickly replaced by shaq admiration)
I caught a few lakers playoff games in college during the 3peat
but the TV was in the game room and to be honest I was much more focused on ping-pong
(ping-pong, the sole reason that Tiger Woods can never be called the greatest individual athlete of all time)
I didnt really pay attention until the finals that they lost, and losing the finals scarred me- so I stopped watching again until this season when kobe put up a crazy string of 45 point games- from then on I’ve watched just like I used to back in 5th and 6th grade
(although sadly I missed the 81 point game)
the truth is though
that during that suns game in the playoffs
when kobe hit that first insane shot to take it to overtime
and that second insane shot to win in overtime
that was one of the greatest moments in my life, I dont remember ever feeling that excited about anything
I was at the mechanics fixing my car and I remember at the time I didnt have television so I’d bought this little AM radio to listen to the playoff games
but by chance I ended up at the mechanics so I got to see the 4th quarter and overtime live on TV
it was just a beautiful beautiful thing
me jumping up running around and spilling nasty mechanics coffee everywhere, while everyone looks at me strangely
I’ll never forget it
even when its bad to be a laker fan
its still good
Sep.1 at 7:02 pm
winston and the telescreen says:
too bad knicks fans cant say the same thing and mean it
(sorry sam)
Sep.1 at 10:08 pm
Rico says:
I think this is a wake-up call for Team USA…a wake-up call that the alarm clock should ring at 3 AM…meaning, like you’ve said, that Team USA should plan the roster not just overnight but in a VERY long process of player and coaching staff selection. Team USA is still lucky that this is not yet the 2008 Olympics because if this loss happened again in Beijing, that should hurt…it will demoralized not just Team US but the NBA itself. It’s like…’that NBA superstar have $90M and lucrative deals and yet he can’t bring a gold medal for his country that he loves and owes a lot for giving him that amount on his contract…please…’ you decide…
Sep.1 at 10:56 pm
Hans says:
Sam. You sound like some dude talking about his old girlfirends. Like, yeah back in the days, I had game… Greece put down the US. Don’t call it an upset either, cause people who know basketball knew it was comming. My advise: Keep this US squad together, and let them practice once a month or so. Greece and Spain have players on the team, who played together since the Junior National team Under 15yo. No wonder they know where to pass…
Sep.1 at 11:36 pm
TJ says:
Team USA needs a leader. THEY NEED KOBE.
Sep.2 at 2:08 am
john marzan says:
Against most inferior teams, the US can still dominate even if they don’t know much about who they’re going up against. But against Greece? Argentina? Spain? Maybe not anymore. And yes, the US has a scouting team headed by Rudy Tomjanovich, and they try to do their best. But learning about the opposing players by relying on Team USA scouting is like cramming for the exams. It’s not as effective as watching opposing players regularly in the Spanish, Italian or even Greek Basketball leagues. And I doubt most American players would bother watching these euro leagues except for serious basketball junkies who need their daily basketball fix.Yes, yes, it’s true that most of them are young and they are going up against veteran teams that have played together for a long time. And it’s true that many Euro teams like Spain, Italy, Greece, Serbia, and Lithuania, not to mention Argentina and up-and-coming Brazil and France have improved tremendously since 1992. But it’s not really the US team’s lack of familiarity with each other or “lack of team play” that made them lose this game against Greece. It was the US player’s (and our) lack of familiarity with the opposing players abilities, AND the opposing players’ familiarity with all 12 members of the USA basketball team is what will always put the USA at a disadvantage. I’m sure every member of that Greek national team knew who Lebron, Wade, and Carmelo Anthony were and what their strengths, weakness and tendencies are. Even the “lesser known” ones like Brand, Battier, and Jamison. They know these players because anybody who is into basketball and every serious basketball fan watches the NBA. And the NBA coverage is comprehensive and only getting bigger. (Like me for example, I live outside the states and never been there, but I am knowledgable about the NBA and can discuss it with anyone. I’ve been a fan of the NBA since the mid-80s and I’ve followed the celtics, lakers, mavericks and suns during those days. But don’t ask me about the European Basketball though. I know little about it and can offer little in terms of tips and strategies) OTOH, I’m sure the American players most of the time have no clue as to who they’re going up against with (except for the foreign players already established in the NBA like Dirk, Manu, Yao, Pau etc.) So they don’t really know what to expect from their foreign opponents. Every game is a surprise for them, and it shows how poorly prepared they were against the better opposing teams (Greece shot 65% overall, 71% on twos). Who’s Papaloukas? Who’s Spanoulis? Who’s that big fat Greek guy with soft hands?
Sep.2 at 2:58 am
sunsdotcom says:
.
I’m gonna predict the players who will participate in the 2007 qualifiers: Adam Morrison SF
Kirk Hinrich PG
Lamar Odom PF
J.J. Redick SG
Kobe Bryant SG
Chauncey Billups PG
Carmelo Anthony SF
Elton Brand PF
Shawn Marion SF
Amare Stoudemire C
Michael Redd SG
Dwight Howard C Kobe Bryant and Chauncey Billups will be the co-captains. Lebron, Wade, and Paul will have “surgeries scheduled” (ala kobe, pierce) at the end of the 2007, which will unfortunately coincide with the olympic qualifiers. but they will play in 2008
Sep.2 at 3:18 am
shikoko steve says:
i agree with hans, slam, no more when we used to play ball threads please, like the weeping eagle was not enough. a selection of american ball players lost a game to a better team that’s all, nothing more, accept that this selection made the same mistakes their forerunners made, being arrogant looking like they don’t care at all. everyone who loves basketball must appreciate they lost because they did not play it the right way, basketball is bigger than a selection of superstars thinking they are gods, by forgetting this fact they embarrassed the game i love and finally they embarrassed themself. team us doesn’t need a leader they need team spirit and the right attitude to the game taking every opponent seriously, not going out there quoting - we are going on a 14-0 run.
Sep.2 at 3:56 am
Mighty says:
That big black fudge whammo from greece looks like a boxer from the video game Punch Out…i used to wonder how Mark Henry would look like playing ball, i guess that Schofififiz&*%%^iiii&(&$^iiiiiii dude was close!
Sep.2 at 5:07 am
iJ from Philly says:
I agree with hans…well some minor adjustments, instead of Antwan (Antawn) jamison, take Bruce Bowen, instead of Chris Paul take Kobe, instead of Brad Miller take Amare Stoudemire, instead of Joe Johnson (optional) take Michael Redd or Adam Morrison….Greece only had one 7 footer and 2 players over 6′10″ i believe…Add 6 more players to the team: Spencer Hawes, Kevin Durant, Jameer Nelson, Chris Kaman, Kyle Korver and Matt Bonner should be included in the roster….comments please!!!
Sep.2 at 5:18 am
iJ from Philly says:
this loss should never be a surprise because we all know that basketball has gone global and teams are focused on closing the gap between them and the USA….. as for preparation and player selection, Colangelo and co are gearing with creating a big roster to prevent unwanted withdrawals and to take the place of any injured player….and it is also a measurement of the way the guys play together, who gels with each other well….the US are on the right track if you ask me….this is also the same plan as any other national team….my cousin in australia told me that their national team roster is about 30+ or so, the same with Greece and Lithuania and other teams…..But the difference is that they have 4 or 5 core guys that they surround their players with…Australia for example has Brad Newley, Bogut, Aaron Bruce, Jason Smith and CJ Bruton, Greece with Fotsis, Papaloukas, Spanoulis, papadopoulos and so forth, Lithuania with the Lavrinovic twins, Macijauskas, javtokas and Songalia….The US should do the same with the BIG 5 of 03…they have 2 more years and after that, another loss means that the gap is officially closed…
Sep.2 at 9:37 am
DT says:
Shiz, it don’t matter if you dominated the sport or not, you have to respect the culture of others, or at least respect the cultural differences. Respect ain’t got nothing to do with hanging tough. I was really disappointed with how USAB Y2K acted in Sydney - I was there and still is. They were good, but they still left a sour after-thought, acted like punks. GP and VC especially. KG to an extent, which I found very surprising. Fast forward, even though USA lost, this WC team got me interested in USAB again. Even though the capts are as young as pups, I thought they showed alot more respect to the game. They didn’t bitch about every call, or tried to intimidate the refs. The Hellas were on fire - 70% from 2pt range and USA couldn’t get any stops. I couldn’t work out why Coack K didn’t play Dwight more in the 2nd half either. Anyways, bottom line, better team on the night won.
Sep.2 at 10:31 am
myung says:
Why is it suprising that KG acted like a punk? One of my best friends is an assistant trainer for the Hawks and meets all the visiting players when they come into town. Through him, I also get to meet a lot of visiting players (with the Post Game Friends and Family passes he gets us). From what I’ve heard, KG is one the biggest jerks he ever met. Among the nicest guys he worked with are Kobe (yep), Jason Kidd, Shaq, Dwyane, Rip, and Mark Madsen (just wanted to throw his name out there bc my friend said he’s probably the nicest NBA player he’s ever met). I met Chauncey, Rip, and Ben last year and all 3 of them were really down to earth. So were Steve Francis and Cuttino (2 years ago when they were on the Rockets). I admit I was surprised when my friend said KG was mad rude bc we always see him smiling and what not when he’s out there…But I guess sometimes the on court persona (or should I say “in front of the camera” persona) and the real dude isn’t the same thing. I’m not saying we can judge a player’s character by 1 meeting. That’s not what I’m saying. But I just think that most ppl make their assessments about NBA players based on what the media allows us to see or what we see through our own eyes on TV. Some of the “punks” are probably really down cats in real life, and some of the “good guys” are probably not all that cool when the cameras aren’t on them. That last comment saying he was surprised KG was acting like a punk…I tend to not get surprised when I hear stuff like that bc of what my friend said. Just wanted to throw that out there.
Sep.2 at 11:01 am
phanos says:
Well, I am Greek, and I am not going to bragg or something, BUT… I think if you played some good teams (please, not Brazil) in the friendly matches, or if you lost an early math in the tournament, you were going to win it easy!!!!
It was a nice team overall, maybe another pg, PT to Brad Miller and some luck (some incredible 3s from players that normally shoot bricks), hurt you.
See you in a couple of years, in the Olympics!!!
Sep.2 at 1:12 pm
Tim says:
So Vince over Weis was like when the Fonz jumped the shark, the signal of the end.
Sep.2 at 6:08 pm
Salih says:
Basketball is a team sport as we know but in NBA,after several years of man to man match ups and baned zone defence,this word had lost it’s meaning.Even in the 06 finals,the mantality of the Heat was “Oh Wade,take this(I mean the ball) and save us!!!”
We can’t ignore the media impact and the change of basketball mantality.Now every NBA candidate(American) tries to slam over a big guy to be famous(so maybe he can be on CNN Sports for the play of the day).The classy jump-shots,mid range efforts and excellent pieces of tactical plays are forgotten.But these are the basics of the game.You can go that far with only two players who can shoot and just one player who plays with his brain,not muscle.USA team was even surpless to guard the Greek pick-n-rolls!!!! From beginning to end,Greeks dig the defence’s heart.That’s a shame.
You can get Kobe,Shaq,Garnett but it doesn’t matter.Making a hole team effort and dedication is needed.The game is playing in higher levels all-around the world and American players are not the center of it now.The gap is very close now.
As I always say : “Basketball is a game for intelligent ones”
Sep.2 at 6:29 pm
Dj says:
I hate how a segment of the American basketball public gleefully declares things like “its good for the game”, or “everyone saw it coming” and “no surprise, the world has caught up”, everytime we fall short in an international tournament. It must be a distinctly american thing to hate on your own national team. Have you guys ever seen the world cup, for christsake? where’s the support?! Where’s the die-hard backing of your team (COUNTRY!) no matter whose on it or how they do?! Why do fans from Ivory coast or Ghana travel thousands of miles to watch their national soccer team get whupped in the world cup and cheer the whole time?! Where is ANY of that in our sport, in our nation?! What is all this BITCHING about selfish american players, no teamwork, and the like?! what is it going to accomplish?! NOTHING. The rest of the world watches happily as we lose another tournament with half of our following actually smugly pleased with themselves that the “arrogant NBA millioniares lost to a true team”. Its a shame, a disgrace, and I am damn sure sick of it. All you guys who want to “just send the college kids” or “watch the pure team play of international basketball”, you’re the reason why we failed in Athens (well, that and crazyass LB benching BMW and playing richard EFFING jefferson and Carlos Boozer heavy minutes, but i digress) and you’re part of the reason the american ballplayers have to play each game against the opponent and half of their fellow skeptical fans. You rant and rave about the lack of D in the NBA, how david stern values entertainment and individual play over team play, well, maybe its beacause “team” play at this level is usually reserved for the not-so-talented teams, as in “team” play is just a pseudonym half the time for “no star players”. Euro players dont come to the nba for money, they do so because its the highest level of ball play in the world.
I bet if we sent the ATL hawks after a 80 game regular season they could win the tournament, maybe with some closer games, but their chemistry has already been established, (JJ the leader, jsmoove the dunker, etc etc) and they would be thrilled to play against vastly undertalented competition.
The problem with our teams lately is that we’re juggling talent of our second tier players (by that i mean, where’s kidd, KG, duncan, ray, kobe)for a few weeks prior to a tournament where they have to learn to play together as a team, and where one small mishap could “doom” us. You do realize the lost against greece was only the 7th REAL game these guys played together, EVER?! If we somehow extrapolated the tournment out into a regular season of 80+ games with the same players i bet the US would go like 80-2 or something.
The problem isnt our players, its how we (the fans, coaches, team selectors, admin etc) handle them. The current team has to stay together, has to practice together, and i personally think that we should keep everyone who played significant minutes (and replace those who didnt with Reddick, Morrison, Redd - they’re not any less atheltic than the intl players, and can shoot the lights out).
The truth of the matter is, BASKETBALL as a sport is still the NBA. INTERNATIONAL basketball, with its wacky rules, crazy lane, and all that was designed with the intent of maximizing less talented players, so its not a huge wonder that teams who have mastered this particulat STYLE of play can beat our guys at it when they’re barely learning it. Why doesnt FIBA adopt everything to NBA standards?
Sep.2 at 8:21 pm
Dj says:
you know, i’m so pissed off that i’m going to continue. I was reading the earlier post by sam (the one with the crying eagle) where all these guys were singing praises to euro ball and the end of america’s dominance, the nba champs shudnt be world champs, and how us throwing our best all stars together doesnt work now. Well, lets see, the whole point of the original dream team was to throw our best all stars out there, no questions asked. It worked in 92. It worked in 94, 96. In 2000 we began to see players back out of the committment, to not want to represent their country. So we got kind of a half-star team, similar to the old dream teams but only with half the star power. They still won, but not as convincingly. In 2002 even more people backed out, and we would up sending the likes of reggie miller and michael finley, great players in their day, sure, but a far cry from the “best of the best” in the League. In the FIBA Americas tournament, we cobbled together an all star team including tmac, carter, kidd, Ray, and JO. IN CASE NOBODY REMEMBERS, WE WAXED ARGENTINA BY 30 POINTS IN THE FINAL!!!!!!
Yes, people, this was THREE years AGO. Its too bad that afterwards the team fell apart, Larry Brown officially went mad, and all hell broke loose in Athens. http://www.usabasketball.com/history/mtoa_2003.html Go Check out that roster, and those box scores. We beat argentina by 2 points the first game, and then by 33 points in the final!!! After the team had gelled, they were unstoppable. After the debacle that was Athens, every no talent sportwriter hack went crazy about how the world had “caught up”. REALLY NOW. We sent a team that had mismatched parts, sub-all star talent (odom, boozer, okafor amongst others) and the best 4 players of the future rotting on the bench. So, YEAH, of course we lost, Larry Brown screwed us over. But that DOESNT mean the WORLD HAS IN ANY WAY CAUGHT UP.
People panicked, and decided to compile a true team that would practice together (Good idea) and also be composed of “role” players. Uh oh. So in comes brad miller, battier, and hinrich. Kobe weasels his way out of another tournament like the spineless egomaniac he is, and when this team falls short, Everyone predicts doom and gloom for the state of american basketball, in its entierty, starting from the grass roots level up, (Too much dunking, etc etc ).
If we WERE able to actually send out best players, something along the lines of KIdd, Kobe, Tmac, Bron, KG and Wade, Melo, Shaq, Duncan and CP3, with Redd and Ray as shooters, the scores would be exactly the same as they were back in 92, 94, and 96.
Sep.2 at 9:00 pm
peteb80 says:
For FIBA to adopt everything to NBA standards, most of the basketball courts in the world would have to be changed: the size, the lines, etc. This would cost a lot of people a lot of money. So I don’t see that happening. Ever. What they could do though, would be to allow that first step before dribbling the ball, which is illegal in international play. That would definetly help more athletic players and better ballhandlers (i.e. the US). In my opinion this would surely improve the watchability of most of the games.
Sep.2 at 11:59 pm
Dj says:
I’m aware that the lanes everywhere in the world are trapezoidal, I’ve lived overseas for four years and had the hardest time adjusting the timing of simple layups because i had a natural instinct to jump as my foot reached the side of the lane, only it was much farther out. But what i meant was not just the lane, but more of the officiating and what is allowed and not allowed, like you said, traveling or palming the ball aka AI/Dwade. I mean, the NBA’s rules were around before FIBA’s rules, werent they?
Sep.3 at 1:27 am
Vlad says:
The truth is, the world is not afraid of the US players, because of, yes, the familiarity, the improvements made abroad, the smell of blood…
This year, i still don’t think anybody but Greece would’ve beaten the US. Argentina and Spain wouldn’t, no matter what anybody says. Not many international teams can beat the US. And in 10 games, Greece would win 2 or 3 against the US. The only thing is, it’s an elimination round and you are one and done. Greece won because of the way they play ball, not because the US basketball is doomed.
The US is not superior as before but that was bound to happen a decade after the Dream Team One. This doesn’t mean that US shouldn’t win every tournament they play in, it just means they have less chance to do so than before and in the past several years, they haven’t used their chances.
In order to understand the problems of US basketball in international competitions one has to take a look at other basketball superpowers that were. When the US was the dominant no.1, the distant second tier contained countries like Yugoslavia (Serbia, Croatia), former USSR and it’s republics (Lithuania, Russia). Those teams were at some point as much ahead of the rest of the world outside the US as the US was ahead of them. Serbia that won the World in 2002 as Yugoslavia couldn’t advance further than the eighth finals 3 times in a row. Croatia and Russia can’t qualify for a major competition if their lives depended on it. Lithuania is in decline, and mark my words, Argentina yesterday played in its last semifinal in years.
What i’m talking about is cycles. I know, Americans think they are so dominant, they invented the sport (it was a Canadian, mind you), that the laws of evolution of the sport can’t apply to them. Well, empires fall and they can rise again. Spain and Greece are basketball superpowers momentarily and they will go down too when their dominant group of guys get old. Small countries like can hope to be successfull every 20 years. Greece won the Euros in 1987 and waited 18 years to win it again. Spain never won anything. Their supremacy is temporary, but it’s their turn. Like they prepared for years to be able to beat the best, now the former best have to look for ways to regain their supremacy. For the US, it’d be easy if the only problem was the way basketball should be played.
Unfortunately, Wade, LeBron and Carmelo are captains of this team as an attempt not to provide the team with great leadership, but to market players. Wrong motives. I know a thing or two about internal affairs of basketball in Serbia where commercial interests (club politics, managers/agents influences, partisanship) have destroyed once-great basketball nation. A similar thing is happening in the US. FIBA rules don’t do the US team any favors, but come on now, these guys are ballers, and their coaches are experts, the complete adjustments to rules should take a game or two.
On the Heat, Cavaliers, Nuggets, the whole teams revolves and plays for D-Wade, LeBron, Carmelo. Who’s gonna play for whom, and defer to whom on this star-studded team. Don’t tell me about 1992. Those guys were in their 30s, experienced, accomplished, had no need to prove anything to anyone individually. These guys are mostly young and immature and no matter how much Stern and the media are trying to recreate Jordan and Magic, LeBron ain’t it. LeBron doesn’t have charisma and likeability, the shark nature, although he’s a great player and a great spokesman for the NBA. In 1992, a Croatian player that was guarding Jordan couldn’t wait for the game to be over so he could the autograph. Now, which Greek player wants LeBron’s autograph or for that matter gives a shit about LeBron’s presence? I touched on many issues here, and there are many more.
Sep.3 at 9:58 am
JS says:
Could it be, that the results and the games in the recent World Championships, and especially this year, are any indication that the only reason stars prevail in the NBA is that starts get star treatment? Because there is more money to be made with stars?
Sep.3 at 6:58 pm
F'''ckin VC Fan says:
I can’t believe this, even when Vince does not play, he still get bashed for the loss of the US. This is fucking unbelievable, some people are just haters. And let me ask any one of you this, if you were 6′6 and you jumped completely over a 7′2 and cramed it on him, wouldn’t you celebrate? If any one says no, well he’s just full of bull-shit!.
Sep.3 at 11:49 pm
o says:
Santu shut the hell up we won the gold medal that year
USA BABY
Sep.3 at 11:52 pm
o says:
Mark shut the hell up USA won baby
Sep.4 at 3:17 am
heavy says:
did somebody say Matt Bonner? I love the red rocket, but anyone who says he should be playing for team usa is drunk, stoned and possibly in a coma.
Sep.4 at 9:59 pm
waylo says:
I love lamp.
Sep.4 at 10:06 pm
dblizzy says:
Fuck that team shit. Lets have an international one-on-one tournament and see whats what!!!
Sep.5 at 2:14 am
Nix says:
You know the NBA and the College game is actually derived from the original rules…the FIBA game borrowed Naismith’s work basically…have a check at the dimensions of the original court in the 50s-60s and see what fiba did around the 60s…
Sep.5 at 2:26 am
deuce21 says:
Here’s the 2008 US Team they need to pick so they can get gold. (postiions they’ll play in the Intl game) Don’t forget, this is in 2008. 1. Kobe Bryant (2/3)
2. Lebron James (3/2)
3. Greg Odon (5)
4. Amare Stoudmire (4/5)
5. Dwight Howard (5)
6. Elton Brand (4)
7. Michael Redd (2)
8. Chris Paul (1)
9. Carmelo Anthony (4/3)
10. Shane Battier (3/2/4)
11. Dwyane Wade (2/1)
12. Chauncey Billups (1/2)
Just missing out are Shawn Marion, Tracy McGrady, Joe Johnson, Chris Bosh, Gilbert Areans and Adam Morrision. Even when I look at this team, it might not have enough shooting prowess, but it does address size, D and leadership issues the ‘06 squad didn’t quite have. Anyway, just though i’d add my 2 cents.
Sep.5 at 2:34 am
deuce21 says:
Might I add that if AI or Duncan came available (particually AI who would dominate in an intl. game) I would pick them in a sec.
Sep.5 at 2:38 am
erkso's finest says:
America CAN still play…but now so can the rest of the world, America had been at the top for so long…and when you’re at the top there’s only one place left to go. But that’s what happens when you’re setting the bench mark and nobody can keep up with you…for a while that is…because America had no one left to beat but themselves, so everybody just kept getting better as you do when you’re going against someone stronger, trying to find a way to beat them, and now they have. Now America can sit and cry and point the finger or they can truly admit defeat and like their opponents learn and grow from their losses, bcoz now America has the opportunity to get better.
Sep.5 at 9:23 am
» My last FIBA post - SLAM Online says:
[…] After a three day weekend where I barely used the computer, I came back to our website to see a hundred billion million responses to the US loss to Greece posts. There’s plenty of reading material for you here and here. America ended up blowing out Argentina to claim their Lebronze medal, but nobody seemed to notice. Even worse, those heroic Greeks ended up getting destroyed in the final by Spain, who played without Pau Gasol (who is really trying to separate himself from the old metrosexual label from a few years ago. The beard and hair is beyond unabomber length). Talk about adding insult to injury. They didn’t even need their NBA star to win the gold medal game 70-47. The MVP of the tourney was awarded to Pau anyways. What kind of a bootleg system is this when a guy doesn’t even play in the championship game and he’s the MVP of a tourney? […]
Sep.5 at 10:12 am
dirk says:
this loss hurt me the most……….redd should have bin on the 06 team because kirk can’t shoot for sh** and chris pual can’t either
AI would be to worn out by the 2008 games to play
Sep.5 at 10:38 am
Shiz says:
DT: I think you got me wrong, IM not saying its cool to get disrespected. No, getting dunked on and stared down does not create the “warm, fuzzy” feeling, but we’re dealing with reality and intimitidation is a real part of NBA ball and sports in America on the whole (like preperation H). The “reality” is that other teams get just as nasty. And outside the world games, in there seperate Country teams/leagues, traveling overseas as become a bit more than an adventure for Americans. Ask Jerry Rice’s nephew how he had to like escape, quite literally, from his overseas team. The “reality” is that a lot of Americans get treated like shit when they play overseas, gettin hit by quarters and half-dollars (sleep on the size and weight of a 50 piece if you wanna, but I bet you wake up when 1 goes whizzin by your head)…oh yeah, ask Vince about that…not very classy, huh? “Sinking” to someone’s level…actually, that might constitute battery or assualt with a deadly energizer at the least. so I guess my biggest gripe is the way some people try to make 1 US basketball team out to be an American movement of palooka’s. And that we’re only there to pick on the little guy. Gimme a break, guys (non-Americans, generally) have beaten us up pretty bad over the last couple go rounds in WC so why harp on old negative shit? More importantly, why is it OK for a team (not singling any team out) to dance around mid-court like its a bonfire and they just got their freedom after beating a NON-DREAMTEAM, but as soon as we do something that constitutes a celebration of our accomplishments, its seen as arrogant american blah, blah, blah?? And its not like we go around saying “Oh, them Greeks” or “Oh, them Spaniards”. Shakin our fists at you when you win. We respect your culture. Hello….melting pot, gimme your tired, hungry, pour masses, etc. etc. What Im saying is…respect our gangsta. We may not win all the time, and we may not play Classic Peach Basket Naismith ball, and we may do more than just chippy elbows on baseline screens, but we are the ambassadors of this game and we did teach yall how to be so good you’d eventually kill us in International comp, so I guess if you want respect you gotta give respect right? Or at the very least, respect our culture of chest thumping, individual play, and so on that make you basketball purist queezy. Look at it this way, you should be happy we were so “arrogant” and “disrepectful”…finally lit a fire under Non-US teams to close that gap. Which they’ve done in impressive fashion.
Sep.6 at 5:30 am
Kostas says:
I’ll go over some of the points mentioned by all you guys, but first this: I am a 28y-old Greek who grew up a crazy basketball fan because of that ‘87 upset (Greece winning the Euro over Yugoslavian and Soviet superpowers)and who is a huge NBA fan and has been studying its history for years. Now: “The rest of the world has caught up”
Yes it has. Some of you guys don’t buy it, and that’s exactly what kills your teams. I would never call it lack of respect, because I know that (most) US players respect their opponents as persons and as players. But, deep within they feel, they KNOW they are a LOT better. Well, they aren’t. Better, yes, but not much. And we’ll come to the reasons why. “Talent is being beaten by teamplay and experience”
Talent in basketball is such a complicated concept. For most people, it is a combination of athletic ability in the sense of hops, strength and quickness, and, yes, STYLE (a Kobe layup is so much more beautiful than a Spanoulis layup of the same difficulty, and that too is referred to as talent). Well, this definition is too narrow. It’s great when it comes to 3 on 3 tournaments. But why aren’t things like undestanding the game, quickness in decision-making, flexibility in changing the way you play, or connection to your teammates ever mentioned? Sure, “good hands” are thrown out there every now and then, or Bron’s “feel of the game”. But noone actually realises that this is talent, too. No RAW talent, but polished talent. Magic and Bird talent. And, to be more concrete, what about dead-eye shooting? Isn’t that talent too? What about the quickest hands in the world in defense? (see Diamantidis, Dimitris, check the footage and the stats) You guys are killing yourselves if you insist on your absolute superiority in talent. You are better, MUCH better, but it is a contest. In talent too. “The NBAers are too arrogant and disrespectful”
Well, yes and no. Three aspects: The chest-bumping, howling, grabbing oneself etc. might be infuriating, but it’s not arrogant or disrespectful IN THE FLOW OF THE GAME. That’s why I hate VC, because he shows off constantly, even on the bench. This team USA didn’t do that. And if they want to howl, opponents have to respect that, if they want their way of celebration to be respected as well. Second, respect is also what you do AFTER the game. I allow everything that happens in the flow, but if you get beaten, you acknowledge. Comments such as “they ran the same f- play and we didn’t do nothing” are BS. First of all, no they didn’t, except between 13′ and 25′, and they mixed it up anyway. And such comments show that “they don’t deserve to beat us, but we shot ourselves in the foot” mentality. No you didn’t. You got beaten by a great team, who in that particular game was the better team. You would probably beat Greece 7 times out of 10 (Spain too, for that matter). But you’d lose 3 times, and it won’t be a fluke. So acknowledge, or it will be 3 out of 10. Third, not knowing the opposing players’names in a WC semifinal is unacceptable. And don’t give me that “unpronouncable” stuff. As much as I love America (I’m no hater, never been one), your cultural stubbornness is sometimes amazing. Greek is one of the oldest languages in the world, not to mention the language of philosophy, theater, science and the New Testament. And don’t get me started on English spelling. You can’t pronounce something? Look it up or ask. It’s five names, for God’s sake. To me, THAT is disrespectful. BTW, Coach K was a perfect gentleman in all other aspects. I’ve got much more, but I won’t tire you. I hope you guys don’t hate on Team USA too much, they played great and lost fairly to a great team playing the game of their lives. Respect.
Sep.6 at 3:46 pm
albie1kenobi says:
Kostas, your post is probably the best post I’ve seen on this site. everything is on point and it’s so well written. That in itself is a point of its own, that even though the states has English as its first language, the best post (on this page at the very least) is written by a man from another country whose mother tongue is not English. I only wish you post this earlier and also at the “down goes america” page, because you would have knocked a lot of sense back into some people.
Sep.6 at 8:36 pm
Dj says:
Kostas: Great points all around, but i have to point out a few things: Firstly,
“But why aren’t things like undestanding the game, quickness in decision-making, flexibility in changing the way you play, or connection to your teammates ever mentioned?” I think what you’re saying is that all those factors are ‘talents’ that the greek (and other intl) squads also have in just as much abundance as the US, But ever watch a NBA game live? I’ve heard the cliche before about how much faster it looks in person, and all that, but the first time i was in attendence at a game (2 years ago, finals game 2, i copped tickets online for an insane amount) i was totally, blown away by the speed of the players, the speed of the game, and the lightning quick reflexes that happen every time down the court by all players. You can’t just have the “athletic talents” of an nba player and not the other intangibles you mentioned and survive. Maybe the flexibility is debatable, but everything else, “understanding the game”, the shooting, everything is already assumed to be a pre-requisite to playing in the NBA. Its after you possess all these tools and get to the NBA, that the raw physical aspects further separate out our Paul Shirleys from our Lebrons. That’s why i think it’s absurd to think that NBA players are all just all a bunch of guys who can jump out of the gym and nothing else. That’s the AND1 tour, folks. Ther’s an old story about Kurt Rambis making like 20 long range jumpers in a row, all swishes in a lakers practice. With a few possible exceptions, (notably Ben Wallace, Jerome James) most NBA players have a basic skill level on par, if not beyond the international players. Players who are only on a roster for their “atheletic potential” alone are very rare and include probably the odd high school draftee. What separates Mark Madsen from Kevin Garnett isnt their refexes, or understanding of the game, etc etc. Both of them, to play in the NBA, have to have a extremely high basketball IQ to begin with. But KG was also blessed with a lot more atheleticsm than Madsen, and thus he’s the star. Secondly,
“And such comments show that “they don’t deserve to beat us, but we shot ourselves in the foot” mentality. No you didn’t. You got beaten by a great team, who in that particular game was the better team.” If Greece had upset Spain, or at least played respectably, then I would totally agree with you. As it stands, the “Great” greek squad was trounced, absolutely destroyed, by a Spainish team playing without its MVP. In this context, it makes you re-think the previous game versus the US.
Is it more likely that the greeks really played that well against us, then totally BOMBED against spain, or that it was simply, a fluke?
If the greeks were really half of what we made them out to be after the US game, then they should have at the very least pounced on a weaked Spanish squad that just survived a 75-74 nailbiter against Argentina, then lost its MVP. But 70-47, thats just unacceptable. This greek team smells of “fluke”. Likewise, history will remember the Greek win over the US as more of a game the US lost, not to take away from that individual game the greeks played, but because the resulting game proved that they were not on that level, it was just a one time “perfect storm” sort of thing. Basically, the general overriding logic is, “The NBA is the biggest League in the World. We send scouts the world over to search for the best talents. If a player hasn’t been spotted and recruited, Yao ming/Dirk -style, then he probably doesnt have what it takes, regardless of his performance in one WC tournament. Or else if his skill is really NBA-level or beyond, what self-respecting scout wouldnt have “discovered” him already?”
I understand that this logic leads to the direct mispreception that the Americans are arrogant in the respect of thinking that they are the best players in the world, team notwithstanding. Seriously though, Mihalis Kakiouzis, “baby shaq”, shot 6/7 against the US. Props to him for a great game. But this guy averaged 10.6 points a game for his Euroleague team last year, and by the looks of him I don’t think he can survive the grind of an 82-game NBA season. This guy once showed up for camp at a reported 400 pounds! Theodoros Papaloukas is a great point guard, but he only averaged 9 points and 4 assists in Euroleague play. Think he can keep up with the blistering pace the Suns play, or be able to guard devis harris on a fast break? The Lithuianian Sarunas Jasikevicius is the best example of this. He played college ball at the University of Maryland, averaged 9 points and 3 assists per game, and shot a miserable 43.6% from the field for his college career. So of course he didn’t make it on any NBA team’s roster. Those are underwhelming numbers, especially for a 6′4 197 combo guard. He goes to Europe, dominates (averages 17/5 on 48% shooting) and has a few good performances against the US in international competition. So he would be the perfect example of a European player who was talented, but not in the NBA. Instead, the PAcers sign him last year and he got outplayed down the stretch by career backup Anthony Johnson.
It doesn’t add up.
Sep.6 at 8:47 pm
Dj says:
I might be beating a dead horse here, but ryan jones here on this site makes essentially the same point i was tryin to make: “Call it excuse making if you want, but I still don’t think enough is said about the differences between the NBA and international games. My comparison, which I’ve been annoyingly spouting around here for a couple days now, is this: Imagine if, say, the Pittsburgh Steelers were told they had a couple weeks to prepare before playing the Arizona Rattlers in an Arena Football League game. They’d be on one of those hockey-rink size fields, with AFL refs, returning kickoffs off the nets and everything. Who do you think would win? Logic saying the Steelers are substantially better football players, and generally bigger, stronger and faster than their AFL counterparts. But given the nuances of the game, I think I’d take the Rattlers. Of course, if you gave the Steelers enough time to prepare, they’d straight dominate, because the nuances would be negated by the fact that the Steelers have some of the best players in the world and the AFL guys are generally good football players who weren’t quite good enough to make the NFL”
Sep.7 at 8:08 am
Kostas says:
Albie1, thank you for your kind words (now there’s a sentence I never thought I’d write:-)).
DJ, allow me to comment on your great response: On your first point, I think you misunderstood me. I completely agree with you on your analysis about what separates an average player from a superstar. I have been at an NBA game and experienced the same awe you are decribing. However, I never meant that NBA players understand the game worse than Europeans (although there has been too big an influx of “raw talent” into the NBA lately). I just wrote that such polished talent is underestimated; hence, a talented team of athletic superstars CAN lose to an EQUALLY talented team of much less athletically talentd players, if the latter play extemely well.
On your second point, I will have to disagree. Greece won the Euro last year and was unbeaten in the Worlds before the Final. It is flawlessly coached and the players are like a family, and stars in their respective teams. I already wrote that they played the game of their lives, and that they’d lose 7 times out of 10. But that doesn’t make it a fluke. If anything, the 47 points in the Final were a fluke, and I would not asser that since it dierespects the amazing performance by the Spanish (please stop writing “Spaniards”, people… not to mention “Grecians”). And I’m really sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong with your comment about history remembering this as a stupid US loss rather than a deserving Greek win. Read ANY article, American or not, on the game, and you’ll know it. Only people who didn’t watch the game and/or know nothing about this Greek team think that.
I won’t comment on success or failure of Euros in the NBA here, but perhaps on another post?:-)
Last but not least, something not mentioned by you, DJ, but that I grew tired of reading: what the hell do you mean by “different game”? You lost to Greece mainly because of their pick’n roll, their trap defence (they didn’t play that much zone! just watch the game) and their good spacing and shooting the ball (in the 4th). That’s the NBA game! All right, I give you the smaller lane and arc, hence less space. But a great defensive team USES that instead of pushing great passers and fast cutters to the center of the field and giving them more space! I also give you the disserent refereeing, but you have to give me this: the most frustrating thing for team USA weren’t the different rules in the calls, but the lack of star treatment! (BTW, as a huge NBA fan I was appalled by the 2006 don’t-even-dare-touch-Dwyane Finals.) So you don’t get the calls. Live with it, if you’re SO much better. But that’s all I give you. The rest is Xs and Os. Coach K trusted his players in their game, and they got outplayed once. In THEIR game. Shit happens. Respect.
Sep.7 at 8:39 am
Dj says:
Kostas: I did watch the Greece-US game, and initially i was pretty darn impressed, I’ll give you that. And truth be told, i did not watch the final, but I guess it was a blowout regardless. You say that one game is a fluke, i say the other one is. Which just brings us back to the whole point of “what would happen in a real season with these teams”, etc etc. I don’t know how we can resolved that on a message board, we only have one tiny sample of games (less than 10 games every few years) to judge our opinions by. So I guess it’s fair. Fluke or no fluke, well, like i said, history will eventually decide, right? As for the foreign players in the NBA, that was the meat of my arguement. Would love to go into it more but this is running long… Thirdly, I think what most people (Mark cuban on blogmaverick, for example) refer to be “different game” is not so much the slightly tweaked international rules/nuances. It’s that those rules/nuances foster a competitive style of play thats pretty different from the american style. Personal story: i moved overseas my freshman year. I played some intramural ball/church ball in the states, but wasnt good enough to play for any real large high school. Not quick enough to play the point and too small for the 2, i was at best a hustle and gimmick 3 shooter off the bench. I would probably have made the tail end of the JV team but wouldnt have gotten any significant PT. Then, i move overseas, and within a year I was starting. I’v started at the 2 the last 3 years of my high school here in asia. We’re an international school but the league is mostly asians, with some expat americans as well. And the game is very different, i can say personally. A slower undersized shooter like me becomes much more valuable. You might think i was bashing Sarunas Jasikevicius, but i actually see a lot of myself in him. My senior year i was the starting 2 and my point man was this short quick asian kid with a great outside shot as well. The only other point scorers on our team were a tall european shooting big man who played like a guard and an undersized but stout and crafty post player who drew fouls and passed well. Sound familiar? We were like every international player sterotype. But thats just how the game is played here. I’m sure its not indictive of the “international” game as a whole, but just based on my personal experience we played a style that, watching on tv, resembled more Spain and less Miami Heat. Everytime a zone was slapped on us i just fired away until i made enough shots to force the opponent to switch back to man. And likewise whenever we needed a breather coach would tell us to slap on a zone and see if anyone on the other team was hot that day. Its the ATTITUDE on defense thats differnet. In the nba, its this matador mano-y-mano thing, bruce bowen versus ray allen, ron artest versus kobe, on and on. But because of the rules (spacing, hand checking) of the int’l game, the nba players are forced to vastly alter their APPROACH to defense. Its just not so much the rules as much as their impact. This is not to say that NBA players dont play team defense, but that the approach, especially with zones and stuff, is geared towards a more collective whole. But in the nba you have double teams, and help defense, and that’s all part of team work as well. Neither style is more “conducive” to team play, it’s just that the Americans have had difficulty adjusting to one particular style, that’s all.